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Is this paying to play? A venue putting bands at financial risk? advice please

ChicoT 15 Jan 2004 09:56

I was recently in contact with the new entertainment booker of the Laundry in Fitzroy and am somewhat disheartened and unsure about playing there again. I was planning on booking a comeback show for my band where we would easily draw a strong crowd. I decided I wanted to make this show at the laundry because its a reasonable size venue with a decent pa and stage and central location and because we'd played there before and really enjoyed it.

However when I spoke to the new booker he said he only books bands who are willing to fork out up to $300 if the bar doesn't make $1500 on the night. He told me that depending on how much below that amount the bar makes is how he will determine how much money bands will need to fork out to compensate for the losses. Yet he did not specify how he would determine this and said 'it all just depends'. He said he now wants bands to 'put their money where their mouth is' and if the bar doesn't make the dollars then the bands can pay the difference.

With this rule the bands are the ones who are under financial risk by playing a show. Now I am quite confident that if we play the show the night will do very well and are highly unlikely to lose money, however I don't think I am comfortable about putting my band in that sort of position. The other problem is that we can do our best to bring a strong crowd but we can't control how much they drink, I don't think this should be the bands' problem. Also if I agree to this deal and support it what sort of message is that sending out to other venues and bands? I would really like some feedback on this topic and some advice on some alternatives venues to perform at for our return show. Perhaps the indie initiative if it comes through? Thoughts anyone?
Thanks</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


planetx 15 Jan 2004 10:55

What next - we have to pay for the electricity we use.???
So we have to trust them, to tell us what they took at the bar, and via thier magical mathematic formula will determine how / if we get paid or how much we fork out.
I can't believe this - it will be interesting to see how long they operate under that format.
Check out 9th ward, flinders lane - same'ish size venue - pa is resonable.

Steve Bracks didn't come up with that pay to play idea did he?? :)</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


tomnhnl 15 Jan 2004 16:07

i think this is pretty fucked(more the booker's attitude than the specific $$)...

but; have a think about this:

"However when I spoke to the new booker he said he only books bands who are willing to fork out up to $300 if the bar doesn't make $1500 on the night."


Guess how much the Rob Roy Hotel take from the door if you sell out the venue? yep, $300; $1 per payer!

I reiterate, i agree the laundry booker is not doing a good thing. But i think its more about his attitiude than about "Pay To Play" because if the venue take $1 off the door, you are 'paying to play', in a way.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Gladys 15 Jan 2004 16:55

Well, it was only a matter of time before this happened here. Whether or not it will become popular amongst other venues only time will tell, but word from accross the tasman where my old band is working right now says that the "Pay to Play" system is in effect in almost all of the Wellington venues.

I talked to my mate over there about it and he said that it sounds worse than it is, and, as someone said in a previous post - look at venues that take a cut of the door - that's "pay to play" if you look at it from that angle. What I am skeptical about is how the Laundry booker is going to work this out. "We'll have to wait and see" just sounds a bit shady to me. What happened to Tamerlaine??
Either way - it is sad to hear that this system is rearing it's head in the indie stomping ground.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Looie 16 Jan 2004 12:49

I can understand them taking $1 off the door - that's fine - they've got overheads(pay bar staff etc coz the staff don't work for free).But to have a possible $300 debt hanging over your head at the end of the night is bullshit.You can't force the punters to drink if they don't wan't to.Fuck the laundry anyway.Who needs the head-ache with those ball-breaking stairs and whinging staff forever telling you that your equipment is in the way.Not me.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


paulraygun 16 Jan 2004 14:20

simple solution is to not go to the venue to see bands or to play if you dont like how they run their business.

they would learn very quickly.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


ChrisNHD 16 Jan 2004 18:07

I've never posted on here so I thought I'd introduce myself before going any further. I'm Christine, manager for new holland drive, nice to meet you.

I'm glad that the issue with the Laundry has been brought up. I've also had some problems when attempting to land a gig through their current booking guy. When I first spoke to him, he said 'get two other bands, and then pick a night in February' Easy peasy! Or so I thought. I rang him again a few days later with a full line up ready and waiting.

Now something that he didn't mention the first time. He wants to hear the bands and meet with someone in person who represents each band. Thats fair enough. His concerns were that he doesn't want the venue to be degrated in any way by anyone who plays and that he'd like to interview bands before allowing anyone on. (that and his last few bands only pulled 30-40 people after promising him at least 200 according to him)

I never heard anything about the 300$ bar fee but he advised that I would need to go in and sign a contract with the Laundry before the bands could be booked in to play. The thing that has bothered me the most in this is that it took three phone calls to get all of this information out of him. Once I thought I had everything sorted out, he required something else. Too much jumping back and forth with no real answers. I started to wonder if he even wanted bands or if he was trying to push us off.

The whole experience felt a little dodgy and the guy was very short when on the telephone. I've decided now to take our line-up and search for another venue in February to play at. The Laundry is just too much trouble to bother with at the moment.

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Tupelo 16 Jan 2004 18:17

Actually, my band launched there late last year, and the nite went off! Great sound and vibe. Anyway, we got a call (from the previous booker) asking to gig in early Feb which we took up. Unfotunately she parted ways and the gig fell thru due to the abovementioned situation. It didnt cost us anything to date so all was cool. Would be good if the venue continues it's promo of original bands as it's a cool place.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Jemwitch 19 Jan 2004 10:55

There are so many other venues to play at that do it better. Good Morning Captain, The Cue, Pony all these venues take nothing of the door. Green room pays the band by the bar (makes sense) so does townhall hotel. the list goes on. If you don't like they way they work then fuck them off. You can't play a gig that's gonna potentially cost you 500 bucks (after paying for a mixer, promo etc).
The pub has a duty to bring people in aswell. You should keep them there. The Laundry ain't fucking festival hall or something.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Tupelo 19 Jan 2004 15:37

Nice comments Jem! I'm with u...</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


pipefitter 20 Jan 2004 00:24

Yeah i heard all about this, and its absolute bollocks. Im friends With tamerlaine and she left when given this deal, and so she should. No need to have a respectable person attatched to this.

This is an absolute shame, the venue is fantastic, and its a shame its come to this. Terrible management. Just appaling.

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NeilWedd 20 Jan 2004 10:51

I want to find out more about this. I have no truck with this system. Bands do not realise how much it costs to run a venue. The $1 ph goes nowhere.
Venues have to pay for security, PA, advertising, rider, rates, rent. The reasons bands switched to DJ's was that bands demand too much money. If the venue loses, you don't see the bands offering to make up for it next time.
If this is the case at the LAundry, certainly don't play there.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Tupelo 20 Jan 2004 11:19

It's interesting Neil. You are right at the associated costs in running a night. However my band (and most like it) don't get opportunity to play great venues that often (not to say that the Laundry is one of Melbs best). Every gig we have played over the last 12 months (all at well known/ respected establishments), none we have played to make money. In fact, some of these venues are pretty slack in forwarding "any" money (if any). Point is, unless it's your livelyhood, you shouldnt expect too much. But, venue owners, be careful when asking bands to dip their hands into their pockets, alot goes into a 45min set (more than just setting up, singing, packing up and going).
Can I also say, that we budget approx $200 advertising for gigs we play. You need to spend in order to gain (I believe). A tip we learnt from the Wedd workshop!!!!</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


tangy 20 Jan 2004 11:38

here here - the laundry can shove their system up their arse. Jem is right, it is not the sole responsibility of the band to fill the venue. A well managed venue (like the espy front bar) establishes its own reputation for being able to provide punters with good live music on any day of the week, and therefore gets a lot of people thru the door who don't even know who they are going to see. These people in addition to those who turn up to see a specific band are what make the numbers healthy there. Perhaps if Laundry booked bands on their quality and interest instead of their willingness to pay to play (God, the laundry is so headed for a consistent showing of crap private school bands from the eastern suburbs with this!) they could establish a similar reputation and benefit like the espy does - ie, the venue should put THEIR money where THEIR mouth is!</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


JustBands 20 Jan 2004 11:41

That explains why Tamerlaine has stopped replying to my emails! :)

We were booking a Canberra V's Melbourne show there for March (2 Cbr + 2 Mel bands)....but all of a sudden, Tamerlaine was gone.

I can understand venues trying to cover their costs, however they are exactly that...THEIR COSTS. They are the ones that have set-up a pub as a business, they take the profits & the risks. Sure..bands have some responsibility to bring people along, however they should not have to take the financial risk that the business is just to play a gig. If it's a quiet night, then I can understand little or no payment to the bands..but having to fork out cash to cover the bars expenses....no way. The bar has the advantage of making up losses for quiet nights by making money from busy nights...are they going to share those profits with the bands that played on the quiet nights? No.
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rockchick 20 Jan 2004 11:41

i have been told by a very reliable source that this 'gentleman' wants to get rid of live music and homosexuals from his venue. These are the two things that make the Laundry what it is. I have boycotted the place...this guy sounds like a nutter.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


7Sundays 20 Jan 2004 12:02

I haven't posted any messages on this forum before, but this topic grabbed my attention...

I run a bar on Smith Street, which is committed to supporting original music. Although we don't run a system like the Laundry, I can kind of empathise with their situation. We're only a small venue, but by the time you factor in staff wages, cost of stock, insurance, rent, advertising, and other overheads, it costs us more than $1000 just to open the doors on a Friday or Saturday night. When we first began, we had this ulturistic ideal of 'paying' all acts that played at our venue. We quickly realised that in many instances this just isn't viable. Supporting unknown or up-and-coming original artists is a difficult proposition. Like someone already mentioned, we often get the promises of 80 - 100 people, which turns out to be 20 - 30. We are left to cover huge losses on these nights.

Despite all of this, supporting such acts is still our priority. We've had some amazing talent through our venue and have helped kick start acts on to bigger and better things. We don't operate a model like the Laundry, but we can't always pay either. Some acts aren't interested in money at this point in their jouney... they like the venue and are happy with the opportunity to showcase their material to their friends and fans (and maybe a couple of beers). On other occaisions, acts may recieve a percentage of the bar, or if a door charge is in place, all takings go to the artists performing (we take nothing).

I haven't written this to defend the Laundry position, but rather to add some further perspective to this discussion. I accept that a venue also shares some responsibility for drawing a crowd, but some areas don't have the consistent traffic of others and attendances can be unpredictable. Also, a small venue such as ours relies heavily on regulars, some of whom may not be in to the act that is palying on the night, and consequently chose to go somewhere else. We consistently perform better when we have no live acts at all... from a business point of view we would be better off avoiding live music all together, but that's not what we're about. We love the music and want to support artists, many of whom would have few opportunities to play elsewhere! Anyway, I think i've said enough for now.

If anyone is looking for an intimate and friendly venue to play (doesn't necessarily suit all styles), please feel free to give us a call - 0411 274 760 or (03)9415 8876.
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paulraygun 20 Jan 2004 22:10

venues need to have headliners that are known the bring in the people and the important bling bling. and unknowns, well they can be content with only opening.

a lot of gigs you look at the bands and wonder who it is. if there is a great headliner, your more inclined to get down there.

think im rambling.. im outta here! :)</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


bigelvis 21 Jan 2004 00:57

i notice everyone has different stories to each others and now mine. i rang the guy and he tells me it is a $2500 guarantee. basically if the bar pulls $2500 then all is ok - the bands keep the door, everyone is happy. if the bar pulls $1000 the band then owes the venue $1500. this is taken from the door + the band's pockets. for a shitty little venue with no regular customers upstairs / byo crowd etc that is pretty harsh. i don't think they will get too many bands of that standard to go there - never have never will (esp now).
i understand how much is involved in running a venue, and i understand where this guy is coming from - on that note, i hear this guy owns a bunch of niteclubs and i reckon it will become a full time off doff bar very soon. for now, i'd say KEEP supporting the bands who play there, cos without you they are forking out (they are dumb for signing up anyway) and just tell everyone you know how fucked the owner is......</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Alias 21 Jan 2004 10:57

Bands must start taking responsibility for their own actions. If your band can’t bring a minimum of 15 people per band member to a gig, don’t bother booking gigs and wasting venue’s money.

If you’re not prepared to work your ass off to bring 15 people each to a gig, you don’t deserve to perform!

All those bands out their bringing fuck all people to gigs are only wasting everyone else’s time and money. Plus you’re making other bands suffer from your own laziness.

Have a good look at your band. If you’re not grateful enough to bring a half decent crowd to a performance, don’t bother wasting the venues time and money by making a booking. If your not confident you can bring a decent crowd don’t book the gig.

If you can get 15 people per band member to a gig, you should keep practicing, cause then your wasting your own time and money rather than someone else’s!
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system 21 Jan 2004 11:14

Alias..you're missing the point.


$2500 bar takings is pretty much equal to 200-250 people buying 2 pints each minimum! ...not 15 people per band (3 bands =45 people)
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JustBands 21 Jan 2004 11:18

To 7Sundays....what's the name of the venue you've mentioned? I was organising a show with Tamerlaine @The Laundry...think I'll give that a miss now!</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


LionelHutz 21 Jan 2004 11:29

What the hell are you on Alias. Get a grip. Are you telling me your band always pulls 100+ people? you must have some cool friends. do they all turn up at midnight on a weeknight to see you? do they travel to regional gigs to see you? please clue me in. I'm curious.
From my experience I've come to realise the following:
1. no matter how many people you tell either friends or acquaintances, work mates etc not all will show up. time and time again i ask people to come. I reckon the ratio is usually 1 to 10. 1 turns up from every ten i inform. but then maybe we suck. who knows.
2. BOTH bands and venues should realise that promoting the night is very important. someone correct me if i'm wrong but i see little promotion for (the) Laundry.
3. most people don't go to see a band they know nothing about. sad but true. you'd be suprised to know that even bands with a considerable reputation including airplay and TV exposure can still stuggle to pull decent crowds.

i can see where your coming from Alias. But the real world isn't so black and white. how many amazing bands out there probably went through a time of not pulling decent crowds but were given a break by some venues. if Laundry truly wants to be a live music venue, (which i think they don't) it might be a good idea to get some clues from other people within the business because the way they're going about it is totally wrong.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


LionelHutz 21 Jan 2004 11:42

heres another example.
you open a shop. you employ some people to work in your shop. few people come into your shop for one reason or another. the employees may have told their friends about the store but you've done little to really push it even within the same industry. maybe the location isn't great. hard to find parking, away from the main strip of shops or the shop itself really isn't all that inviting despite the great products you may sell. do you then turn around and ask your employees to make up the money you didn't make out of their own pockets? the employees might be hard workers and they've really tried to help make the business work. is that fair?
i personally think (the) Laundry is ill suited to bands for reasons mentioned in another post. it'll be sad to lose another venue but here's hoping another one will come along in its place. maybe someone can track Tamerlaine down and see if she wants to find another venue to take a crack at.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


tangy 21 Jan 2004 11:58

good point here about the promotional activity of the laundry. There are a number of things this venue could do to increase their overall profitablity as a live music venue. they could promote better (ie, golden rule of press advertising - landscape ads running full width of page more impactful and more effective than cluttered portrait at side of page al la laundry), and are they involved heavily enough with community radio (showing support very important in fostering relationship with music community) and I'm sure, if the time and energy was dedicated, a number of 'outside the square' promotional stategies could be devised and implemented to increase overall viability of the venue. THE MESSAGE IS: DON'T SADDLE BANDS WITH PROBLEMS CREATED BY YOU, OR PROBLEMS THAT EXIST BECAUSE YOU FAILED TO RECTIFY THEM.
And another thing, put the bands downstairs, and put the djs upstairs for when everything else closes - you chumps at the laundry missed the boat on being 'revolver for the northside' - this niche in that location existed for ages, and was finally capitalised on by Bimbo</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Alias 21 Jan 2004 12:15

Not 15 people per band! 15 people per band member! So if there are 5 members of the band you should be pulling at least 75 people to a gig. If there are 4 bands playing and each band pulls 75 odd people, that’s 300 people through the door on the night.

My philosophy is that venues are not to blame. To often in this world people simply blame others for their own fuck ups. The fact is bands don’t bring people to their gigs and now the venues are struggling to survive.

Don’t blame the venues, blame the bands. If a band can’t bring the equivalent of 15 people per band member, don’t bother booking a gig cause all your doing is wasting the venues time and money!

Take responsibility for your own industry otherwise there will be no venues left in the future.
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FunkyBill 21 Jan 2004 13:05

Alias - drink a nice warm glass of shut the hell up and maybe get yourself a dose of reality. You speak like you are in a band, but what you are saying leads me to believe you are a venue manager who has been burnt by a band(s) in the past. Correct me if I am wrong, but your logic applied into a hypothetical situation would go something like this:

Band X have just finished high school and are an enthusiastic up 5 piece band with loads of potential, but haven’t played anywhere yet. They have their mates and family who support them, but they number less than 25. They get offered a support from a local act, but refuse it because it would be wasting the venues time because they need to pull at least 75 people on their first gig (and every gig they do after that). So they give up playing music because they can NEVER play live? WHY? Because of some moronic catch-22 system that someone came up with on Indie Initiative.

No offence mate, but if that was the case, we would run out of bands pretty bloody quickly, and then we would all have to buy “Australian Idol – The Best Of” for our music fixes.

I understand the venues concerns, but there is no reason why struggling bands without much rep can’t be given some exposure by supporting a bigger band. It’s like an apprenticeship in a way. The apprentice may not do as quality job as the mentor, but with patience and education, soon the apprentice will be the mentor.

Get a grip mate. If you are in a band, please tell me that you have pulled your “15 people per band member” quota every gig since you have started. If you are not in a band, then please tell me how you worked this little system out, and how it is relevant for small bands doing a local support in a small venue.
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ChicoT 21 Jan 2004 13:30

Thank you to everyone who has replied it has helped me make a decision.

To Alias, I think your attitude will put you out of business as it is scaring bands from playing at the venue (maybe this is your agenda). I was willing to book what is sure to be a very succesful night for both the band and venue, but it makes sense to me now that this vague and unfair arrangement shoudn't be accepted by my band. I understand that bands need to pull their weight and pull decent crowds for venues to remain open, but bands should not be expected to make up for the business' entire losses.

We are not being given a straight answer about exactly how much we will be accountable for if the bar does not meet the target amount. There are plenty of other venues that will book my band and accept a pre-arranged cut from the door.

The problem with this deal and booker (other than attitude) is that allthough we can do our best to bring a crowd, we can't control how much money they spend at the bar, and that should not be our problem. Say we organise shows and bring 75 people each, ok its likely they will drink but what if they don't or only a small percentage of them does (esspecially on a week night). Are we expected to compensate your business for loss of income even though we have filled your shop with customers but they are not appealed in purchasing your products.

This arrangement is a classic example of business ruling over art!

How can you expect a musician/artist/performer to go on stage and perform while they are worrying about how many drinks are being bought during their setlist.

This arrangement is wrong as it interferes with the artist's ability to concentrate on the artform during the performance.

It this sort of psychology and greed that is destroying the integrity of musicians and artists today. It is almost impossible for almost any artist to make a living from their art, we all know this. But when unfair arrangments like this come into place, it makes it next to impossible for an artist to express their creativity. It is this sort of greedy and insensitive mentality that is wrong with the world today.

I have booked bands for a venue in the past, so I understand that if a venue does not cover its overheads and make some profit to boot, then there will not be a venue for the band to perform in. However the attitude of the current laundry booker is not the right way to go about running a venue. The response on this site is already proof that bands do not want a bar of this arrangement. I think Tamerlaine did an amazing job last year with the venue and hope to hear that she will take another venue under her wing. But until then it seems that The Laundry will be losing its upstairs clientelle.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


7Sundays 21 Jan 2004 13:47

Hey there JustBands (and everyone else),

The name of our venue on Smith Street is SOAK BAR. It's a pretty intimate space and doesn't suit everyone (especially larger bands), but we're happy to have a chat and see if we can meet your needs.

This topic is turning out to be a doosie! From a business perspective I can embrace the view of 'Alias', but recognise that this is rarely realistic. Despite the challenges and the financial difficulties, we're still keen to be supporting the "Band X's" mentioned by 'Funky Bill', (aswell as the more accomplished bands, ofcourse). If you think you might work in a smallish veue, give us a call - 0411 274 760 or 9415 8876.

Long live live music - both the famous acts and those just starting out! (even if it does send us venues broke....Ha)</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


system 21 Jan 2004 15:34

Alias, you do not live in the real world.

A struggling band (and if we aren't signed to a 4 album deal then we are all struggling) can only hope to drag 50-100 people to any gig.
If it's a cd launch..then that's different...then we can talk about 100+

Support bands who start at 8:30pm in the evening cannot be expected to drag 60+ friends along to a gig that nobody including the headlining band gives a shit about.
Why not just save the good will for the big gigs?...
The onus is always on the headlining band.

But a normal midweek gig ....forget it..unless you have heavy rotation on JJJ and a few releases under your belt , you are living in dream land alias.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


DV888 21 Jan 2004 21:22

Alias, I remember seeing The Meanies at The Richmond Club Hotel all those years ago. There were 3 people there - me and two mates> They were doing Ramones covers on request. By your kind of logic, (and regardless of what you actually think of their music) this relatively succesful band just never should have dared showing their ugly faces in broad nightlight. Fuck you, I say, you fusty musty rusty cur!</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Zoquo 22 Jan 2004 10:59

Does that mean a 3-piece band only needs to bring 45 people?</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


LionelHutz 22 Jan 2004 11:35

Yeah and the White Stripes or Mess Hall only 30</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


JimStorm 22 Jan 2004 12:59

Any businessperson that requires its suppliers or service providers to reimburse the purchasing business in the event of a sales loss is entitled to do so if the contract contains terms and conditions along those lines. Morals aside, as a business model it is staggeringly unprofessional - venues are in it for business (please rest the we're in it for the love drivel) - and the bands they book are there to act as a catalyst for the venue's sales. Poor operators will fail, whether it's one thing or another.

It's almost laughable were it not so unconscionable. This backyard-moghul at The Laundry ought to sell up and stick to something far less complex and demanding as a live music venue (what a dilletante). Let professional operators like those at The Espy, the Corner, the Prince Bandroom, The Metro cover the field.

Anybody who accepts such terms as those offered by The Laundry has a screw loose.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


tangy 22 Jan 2004 13:04

brings me to a good point. the white stripes failed to fill the 9th ward on their first tour here.

what venues and bookers need to realise is that their job is to speculate - just as an investor does - you see something, you think you can make money off it, you think it can work, you put your money up and you wait for to see what happens. Why should venues and their bookers be any different to concert promoters. If a booker knows their shit and they do their job well, they make money. If they don't they go broke. Every industry has its better operators, who succeed while lesser operators die off. IIt is possible to make money from a live music venue - IF YOU KNOW WHAT THE F*@& YOU ARE DOING.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Tupelo 22 Jan 2004 13:16

Great topic, lottsa discussions.
One common thread thru this topic is the numbers game. Getting bodies thru the door. There's no doubt that getting numbers at your gigs assist in two ways, happy venue owner and a good chance in being asked to go back there to play. No one wants to stuff there chances up by getting only 10 people along to a gig.
My advice is to play less. Spend more time honing your act/set and try and get well spaced gigs at good venues. Its a recepie that has not failed my band, and we only started playing Feb 03, only playing 17 gigs since, all however at great venues with great crowds. You will get noticed and asked back to play venues.
I may have also mentioned it in an earlier post, but YOU SHOULD be prepared to outlay some $ when giggin. Don't rely on the same ol heads. Advertise, get the name out there.
As for venues (such as the Laundry), if the "clauses" don't suit, don't waste time considering. There a plenty of great venues in this friggen town....
Rock on.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


dickduck 22 Jan 2004 14:02

A few months ago I went to see the movie "Laundry" at a theatre called "Greeting Method".
It wasn't that good actually, my popcorn had moths in it. I thought, "why waste money on a film that's named after something that everyone hates doing?"</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


RedBeard 23 Jan 2004 18:37

I for one can not believe this is happening... Obviously the Laundry will die and crumble into nothingness rather soon...

I for one have been playing in Melbourne bands for around 6 or 7 years, and I can honestly say I don't mind not getting paid... If the venue wanna charge $5 at the door and take $2 a head and split the $3 between 3 bands that's fair enough... it gives the bands a chance or a need rather to bring people so they get paid... but asking a band of people who have to work hard for a living to earn money to live, pay for rehearsals every week, pay for equipment, repairs and so forth.. everyone knows the expenses a musician will encur... ask them to pay $300 because the pub might not make $1500 a night... it's fucking ridiculous... take $2 off a $5 deal a head... that's fine... I don't mind... what about nights that live venues might not have a band booked, who pays for their losses on that night??.. The punters?.. I doubt it...

Like I said, I am more than happy to play for $1 a head... it gives us all an incentive to bring more people... the more people.. the more money... I don't agree that venues in any way shapre or form should have to fork out money to pay the bands... I don't think that's a good idea unless of course the venue want to...up to them I guess.... but to expect a hard working band to pay out $$$ like that to play... it's fucking pathetic...

RIP The Laundry.... I've had my bitch... now I'm going to support a few bands tonight but I doubt I will be heading towards the Laundry anytime soon!!! Fuck em I say.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


pickslides 25 Jan 2004 13:24

it is terrible that bands have to pay to play, but what about that 10% of bands who just rock in & do a show without promoting it. those bands should have to pay to play

these sort of bands wonder why they play to an empty room every week. and the venues suffer as there was no one there to drink the beer.

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raven 29 Jan 2004 16:11

I have read this with some interest and cannot believe that a venue such as The Laundry, or any other for that matter would try and take advantage of a band in this way.
It is almost impossible to know how many people are going to turn up on any given night to see a band play. There are countless reasons for people, inlcuding friends/family not being able to make it and for a venue to expect a band to sign an " open cheque" (for that is what it is), is really sad.
I have my own company which has clients from various walks of life, I have people in the building/trades fields, musicians and artists, office professionals etc.
I cannot imagine saying to one of my clients, you know what, if you don't make enough money this month, I'm going to charge you more for that CD cover design than I first planned, or if you can't complete this or that to my satisfaction, I'm going to charge you more for your BAS preparation. I'd be laughed at!
I have to ask if the same booker pay's EXTRA to those bands that bring in more than the magic $1500.00? I'm guessing NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The guy sounds like a bastard, taking advantage of peoples passions and need for expression to a new level, Damn I'd LOVE to do his tax return or charge him for a webdesign or business plan or whatever, what is this guy's name? I think everyone should know about him.
What I'd really like to know is what the owners think? Or is he simply pocketing the exta $$$$$ for himself????????
As an accountant, I UNDERSTAND bottom lines and overheads/costs etc. quite well, but that is what they are, overheads!
If a band is playing, and the venue puts on say 3 extra people for the night, say 4 hours each @ $20.00 per hour, the only extra overhead is $240.00 FOR THE NIGHT!!!!!!!!! not $1500.00
If it's busy then yes there is more clean-up and more dishes etc, but guess what, that also means that people are buying drinks?!?
If the place is not busy, say 20-30 extra people, these people over a 3 hour period will buy between 150-300 drinks (statistics you gotta love them ! LOL) If we work on the 150 drinks @ $3.00 per drink, that's $450.00. Even if you take into account the cost of the drinks, and the staff, you still break even.
Electricity/gas insurance etc, they all need to be paid with or without customers, they are a constant.
So yes, there are overheads, but they are limited. And yes I have not included the cost of the band, that depends on so many factors, however, to say a band costs a place $1500.00 is simply NOT TRUE.
Believe me, this is my line of work, and quite frankly it SHITS me when freaks like this booker try and "dazzle" musicians with catch phrases like "overheads"
I KNOW WHAT I'D LIKE TO SEE OVER HIS HEAD!!!!!!

So next time someone trys to tell you they are doing you a favour, just remember, you might be doing them one too!</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


ZeddES 31 Jan 2004 17:12

The Laundry sucks the bag,.... only because of this moronic phylosiphy. They do not deserve to be called a live music venue in a city as brilliant as Melbourne. They can fuck off. If you look at a venue in comparison such as The Central Club in Richmond, you get the total opposite of the spectrum. Here we have a venue that constantly puts on no-name bands, quite often for their first gig, and even on weekend nights. They boast a huge stage, and a fantastic PA. They provide bar staff, and more often than not, door staff. Bands are always given a cut of the door charge in the deal, and only have to fork out for the sound engineer. It is the perfect model & venue for starting bands, however it has no regular crowd, and relies entirely on band's own promotion to get punters thru the door, yet the bands quite often play to a near empty room. I know I have rambled about the Central Club before, but it really kills me to see a venue wiht such great potential struggling so much, when they are really trying to support new bands. A venue like the laundry can struggle wither and die with their attitude, but someone could really do some great things with the Central Club, if we as musicians gave them the support they give us. It really has to be a two way street. I can see Alias' point, but it is just SO hard to achieve, near imposible to do it consistantly. I think Alias has just over-simplified the situation.

The give yet another comparison, I run a rehearsal studio complex. I am an accountant, and I know that in order to break even I have to get 16-bands thru my studios a week to cover my costs. This rarely happens, and for the most part my business runs near, or just under break even. Advertising costs $$$ and doesn't seem to make a huge difference. Consider I run a $200.00 ad in Beat,.... that ad alone has to gain me 4 NEW clients that week just to pay for itself! If I jack my prices up, the bands will go elsewhere. Maybe I should just tell my clients that from now on, my fees will depend on what kind of week I am having. If its slow, you may have to pay $200 to rehearse, because I need to cover my costs?!?!?!?
I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!

At the end of the day, people are involved in independant music for love. You cannot seriously get into this seen to get rich,.... if it happens, you are one of the lucky few. That goes for the bands, the venues, the studios,... the whole industry...... until you get to the top maybe 5%.... who make a damned fine living!!

Z.
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famous1 2 Feb 2004 16:34


I had the pleasure of being raped by Joel & Natascha - leeches on the local live music scene. After being screwed over by 2 venues for my launch, I finally booked the 31st Jan @ Laundry, with Tamerlaine in Nov 2003. Apparently Laundry changed management on 12th December - just my luck, because the new management stated that I had to put up a $2,500 guarantee on the bar for the privledge of playing there, because THEY were losing $1000 a night. Why would anyone with half a brain buy a business which is APPARENTLY such a liability and then whinge about losing money? I had a written contract from Tamerlaine for the gig booking, so the new owners were clearly in breach of contract. I have rarely met two people as profoundly stupid, rude and disrespectful in my life - even within the music industry. It was too late for us to pull the plug as my publicist had sent all publicity out to press & industry and at that point, we were left with less than 3 weeks before the gig. I wasn't prepared to print a 3rd lot of flyers to change the venue again, especially within the time-frame we had.

During the night we got no rider, our sound engineer was bitched to by Laundry's sound engineer who had to turn up to "show her how the desk worked" and she was told she had to sign a contract in case she caused some damage. Completely insulting. At the last minute we were told in a passing comment that we couldn't begin soundcheck until 7pm. During soundcheck I was informed that it had to finish by 7.30pm. Not us - the ENTIRE soundcheck - ie, 3 acts.

As if the lead up to the gig and the night itself wasn't horrendous enough, at the very end of the night, I was abused by their equally brain-dead neighbour, Larry, for blocking his driveway (at 2am, mind you) as I was loading out the remainder of my gear after a debarcle gig that cost me more money than I wish to think about. Instead of being treated with respect and thanks for getting 140+ people to the gig (for the privledge of playing there without having to put up the $2,500 on the bar) the bar person (Natascha, I think) passed on the message from Loser Larry for me to move my car. Perhaps if she helped me load my equipment down the deathtrap stairs, I would have been out of hers & Larry's hair a lot sooner. We got no rider, no respect, no assistance & no advocacy (re: Larry) or thanks at the end of the night.

The crowd we attracted would've spent several hundred dollars on the bar in that time and that's the treatment you get. It's great that a musician on the poverty line can help subsidise the mortgage of two complete fuckwits that have no business sense and even less respect. Oh, and I haven't even mentioned us being locked upstairs between soundcheck and the opening act... or the fact that there were only 20 people in the ground floor bar. Really going off for a Saturday night! This is how they keep afloat - by raping artists in a shameless pay-to-play scheme. The Laundry has been one of Fitzroy's Icons - home to RRR Live to Airs and so forth. What a shame the NEW management have such delusions of grandeur to think that they are the Rod Laver Arena. Shame, Shame, Shame. May we all unite and NEVER book another band at that venue again - at least until it changes hands. Joel & Natascha deserve nothing but contempt and bankruptcy, for they are parasites.

Deborah Hocking
www.deborahhockingband.com</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Alias 13 Feb 2004 11:24

This was posted by Spanky, though it seems it was overlooked. At least someone in this world has an idea.

It's really simple, if bands were bringing good crowds venues would be making good money. If bands don't bring good crowds, venues will look at other ways to keep afloat.

In regard to the Laundry...

Your all saying the same thing based upon your own personal agenda. It’s an argument that can’t possibly be resolved objectively. It’s just competition in a free market…that’s how it works. Methods that make money will survive and those that don’t will die.

What transpires will be determined by the market itself.

Without the existence of benevolent venue owners who support live music for reasons other than to make money, this industry could perish.

This issue is merely a symptom of the falling demand for independent music. If the demand for independent music was high, we would be expecting payment from the venue for simply turning up to a performance.

We are competing against every other type of entertainment out there. We should be concentrating on how to create more demand for our product….or maybe we just need more products that create demand?
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Alias 13 Feb 2004 13:28

Here are some funny extracts that have been posted so far:

LionelHutz -
2. BOTH bands and venues should realise that promoting the night is very important.
3. most people don't go to see a band they know….. you'd be suprised to know that even bands with a considerable reputation including airplay and TV exposure can still stuggle to pull decent crowds.

My reply:
How great is this one? Venues should be providing more advertising for the 100’s of unknown bands they host every week. BUT, even if the bands have had radio airplay and TV EXPOSURE pulling a crowd will still be a struggle. Gee adverting would be money well spent.

Looie-
I can understand them taking $1 off the door - that's fine - they've got overheads(pay bar staff etc coz the staff don't work for free).But to have a possible $300 debt hanging over your head at the end of the night is bullshit.

My reply:
If bands are pulling crowds of 30 people, which is what most of you are suggesting is a reasonable amount, that means venues will be making $30.00 to pay their ‘overheads’. Gee you band members really support the people that support you. How could you be so generous?

Paulraygun-
simple solution is to not go to the venue to see bands or to play if you don’t like how they run their business.

My reply:
I heard people don’t come and support bands? Let’s blame the venues… there’s no way the bands are to blame. Let’s stop supporting all the venues that have supported bands for so long!

FunkyBill-
Band X have just finished high school and are an enthusiastic 5 piece band with loads of potential, but haven’t played anywhere yet. They have their mates and family who support them, but they number less than 25……should they book their first gig?

My reply:
If 5 kids out of school can only muster 25 friends and family to their first gig………don’t do the gig because that’s pathetic.

What’s more important when trying to play music for a living, writing good songs or pulling good crowds. Bands are judged not by their musical ability, but by their popularity. Supply and demand. So why aren’t bands pushing to get more people to their gigs? As a band member if you can’t get 15 friends to a gig, you are either a lazy fucker or a wanker with no friends. Like any business, building friendships and relationships with new people is vital to your own success. 15 people is not many...

ChicoT-
I understand that bands need to pull their weight and pull decent crowds for venues to remain open, but bands should not be expected to make up for the business' entire losses.

My reply:
In that case maybe businesses just like the Laundry will start changing the way they operate so that they can start making some money. This may mean the venues simply stop providing opportunities for unknown bands altogether. Or, they might start charging bands to play so that they can keep the doors open?

Or maybe all you lazy wankers could start bringing more people to your gigs?… just wait, hang on…that would be to much trouble…lets just blame the venues.

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FunkyBill 13 Feb 2004 16:00

OK Alias - it is obvious you whole-heartedly support this new approach of The Laundry. While I can see your angle, ie - the venue must look after itself first and foremost, my point is this system is too extrteme. Blaming a loss entirely on the band is wrong.

Some rare, but entirely possible scenarios would be:

Q. What if the barman was too slow to pour drinks and people got fed up waiting? Subsequently they leave right after the band they came to see.
A. The band gets blamed for a low bar take

Q. What if there is a Legionaires outbreak in the area and people are too scared to come to the gig?
A. The band gets blamed for a low bar take

Q. What if Melbourne experiences a storm and people stay at home?
A. The band gets blamed for a low bar take

Q. What if the band do a great promo job, and pack the place, and the beer flows?
A. The band get no credit for the overwhealming success. Just the shitty door take.

I for one am not blaming the venue for anything, but it is a give and take thing right? The band could put itself right on the line and promote as much as possible, and still come off second best.

Please tell me your experience - are you in a band? Have you EVER experienced a band turnout regardless of your tireless promotion efforts?

Sometimes turnout is beyond anyones control, and slapping the ENTIRE expense on the band at the end of the night is selfish.

Personal experience: In NZ I played extensively, and would tour regularly. One night we were booked in a venue which we never had trouble packing out to about 90% capacity in the past. Our usual promotion procedure was followed with posters, flyer runs, radio ads and gig guides. We arrived in the city and loaded our gear in and sound checked, we left the venue and had dinner, expecting upon our arrival to see the place getting crowded as per the last half a dozen shows we played there. We got back, and there was NO-ONE! The bands, the soundmen, and the bar staff, but NO ONE else. I still havnt figured out why. We lost promo money, door take and travel expenses. If that had of been the Laundry, we would have also had to foot the bar staffs wages etc etc etc. (NB next time we played in that city, we packed the place out again).

At the end of the day, I think it can be rounded up like this: a band of my status would NEVER sign up for a gig that could potentially sink us, and I would be surprised if any of my peers would do something so stupid. If you want to, then you either have a following big enough to support your solid gold testicles, or you are naieve. Either way your quick responses to the arguments listed above have not done anything to make me reconsider my stance on this issue.

PS . Maybe The Laundry no longer wants local Indie Bands, but instead more national/international bands with garaunteed followings. Good luck to them if that is the case, but I sincerely believe there is a middle point to be reached which the Laundry have overlooked, and subsequently means they are falling out of favour with local artists.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


chupp 13 Feb 2004 16:35

Alias what is your bands name?
I want to come and see all of these punters.......Maybe a tuesday would be nice...</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


LionelHutz 13 Feb 2004 16:48

what i'm saying Alias you fucking moron is that it is a risk, a RISK. RISK RISK RISK. is and always will be. there are no certainties in any industry especially the music industry. things don't always go to plan and hundreds of people don't always come to see your band especially if your are virtually unknown. the first time the White Stripes played in Melbourne they pulled 50 people. that is a fact. ask the booker of the Espy. now they're not my favourite band by a long shot but you can't deny the enormous success they've had. what would of happened to them if they were shutdown after a few poorly attended gigs. the first time the Police played the States, they pulled 4, yes 4 people. should they have given up there and then. did you even get what i was trying to say previously? i think not. you just seem to be blindly opposing any opinion that doesn't gel with yours. yes the band has a responsibilty to draw a crowd but so do the venue. unfortunately life isn't so black and white.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


LionelHutz 13 Feb 2004 16:54

Funky Bill you hit the nail on the head. what band are/were you in?</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


emulsion 13 Feb 2004 21:49

sorry to include my ramblings but just a few things I might bring up.
You all know that there are certain art galleries, theatres, places that present creative works in a not-for profit environment, who recieve money from the government initiatives set up to encourage art and culture. Well is there really any difference between say, the Ian Potter Centre, and the Espy??
Both are an institution for all that is creative and interesting. Both contribute enormous amounts to the surrounding community. Both are representational of a degree of culture that, i thought, was Melbourne's pride and joy. This is not a call for the government to start dishing out tax-payer's money to preserve a battling yet intergral industry in Melbourne, the Pub-band scene, but merely an observation.

Sure it would be great if Melbourne was this buzzing infestation of punters thirsty for that rock taste, seven nights a week. I'm sure, if we had a choice, we'd love to be living and gigging in the 1970s Melbourne scene described by Billy Thorpe. Thorpy and his band would play 5 gigs a night!! To five packed venues every night, 5 nights a week!! Some of these venues didn't even sell booze. Sure they got payed fuck all, but personally, if i could just have a taste for that kind of buzz, i might consider putting $300 on the line to make a venue feel a bit more secure for leaving the future of their business in my hands.

I figure, let's all forget about the money for a few minutes. Forget a little thing called money ever existed. What we all want, as musicians, is large crowds to perform in front of. All the venue wants is large crowds to sell beer to. How do we make this happen?? The reason live music has survived thus far is because it ATTRACTS PEOPLE. Any problem then, immediately relates to this very core problem. Yeah, we all have to put the crumbs on the table. You can all bicker and moan over who is wrong, and who is right. But ultimately, bickering fixes nothing. Groups i've heard of like MusicMOB and others actually getting out there, and encouraging other to do the same are the ones who will turn this around. No-one here has an excuse for not checking out OTHER people's bands. Personally, I live an hour and a half away from Melbourne, but still manage to get into the city a few times a month to check out a new band. And when I move to Melbourne next week, i'll be fucked if I'm not hitting the pubs at least 3 nights a week.

I've followed this topic for a few weeks now and I've been slowly getting more & more annoyed. It may start slow, but if everyone in this forum could just get a little more enthusiatic about actually putting their energy into getting out there instead of typing abuse to each other, then there wouldn't be anything to complain about. This is what is called CREATING INTEREST. If every person could just show someone new a wicked night out watching bands every week-end, then we may just be able to build up a scene that not only would we all be proud to be a part of, but those precosious venues might be able to make their pretty coin. All we need is some common ground. Venues need to realise that bands are providing a valuable contribution to the city, but musicians need to realise that venues are sticking their necks out at great personal risk to nurture these undiscovered bands. Sorry to ramble on. Peace.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


system 13 Feb 2004 22:34

Alias's attidude and skewered philosophy reflects everything that is rotten about music venues..

Bands support venues when venues support bands, the success stories are evident.The bands are doing all the work, the venues make the money if they book with discretion and experience...

Alias, go shove your patronizing indignation up your tight fisted a-hole, you represent everything wrong and greedy in Melbourne today, I reckon you must be the booker for the barleycorn.



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paulraygun 14 Feb 2004 23:09

Paulraygun-
simple solution is to not go to the venue to see bands or to play if you don’t like how they run their business.

My reply:
I heard people don’t come and support bands? Let’s blame the venues… there’s no way the bands are to blame. Let’s stop supporting all the venues that have supported bands for so long!

------------------------------------------------------------

Hang on a second, I was making a comment about how if someone doesnt like how the manager runs an establishment then they should take an option of not dealing with them, hence not playing the venue.

I dont know where your going with that quote and the response. I was not saying that any certain venue was to blame. However if the general consensus is that the majority refuse to deal with these people however are able to play at other venues, whish are keeping their doors open, then maybe they should look at their business strategy.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


NeilWedd 15 Feb 2004 13:17

I love this discussion. But a few points from someone with a lot of experience.
Billy Thorpe played 5 times a night and earned probably $100-$200 each show. The venues made money and supported the whole scene. It was an easier time and TV didn't offer much choice.
But there were lots of great bands and this gave smaller bands a chance to get noticed. The great periods of OZ rock coincide with explosions in venues. The fashion comes from the inner city and works its way out. I feel we are in for an explosion as a lot of bands are out there trying to get work.
Bands are desparate to play and will put up with Battle of the Bands and shitty treatment in order to be heard. Once you can get an audience and get some experience you are on the way.
Live music has to learn from the dance culture in presenting their shows. We need to have eye candy, shows that run on time and good sound and lights.
Dance culture is learning that it must have a live entertainment quotient. Rap acts now have live bands.
But venues do not make enough money from the door. When having a dance night you hire the talent for a flat fee, get some promoters and if you do well you make plenty of money. But with a successful live venue, the agent will screw you for the best deal and so you end up with $1-$2 ph instead of making up to $5 ph from dance events.
So things need to change so live music can grow.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Alias 18 Feb 2004 12:48

You all agree that the foundation of your industry is the relationship between bands and venues. Bands should be supporting venues and venues should be supporting bands.

I agree with that notion and that’s why I won’t simply blame the Laundry for doing what their doing. The Laundry sound like they’re in trouble. If venues are struggling to survive, bands need to start helping out otherwise there will be fewer places left to gig.

Take a good look at your complaining, belligerent, and unreasonable behaviour. I find it hard to believe that any of you believe in the notion that bands should be supporting venues and venues should be supporting bands. Because at the moment it’s all one-way.

If the Laundry are doing this out of greed, than that’s another matter. But if they are genuinely struggling to survive you guys are selfish greedy wankers who don’t deserve to perform anywhere with that sort of crappy attitude.

Bands should be supporting venues and venues should be supporting bands! In this case it’s more like ‘bands should supporting venues up until the point they become financially ruined, and then we’ll kick em in the guts and boycott the venue’
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Alias 18 Feb 2004 12:55

By the way...i'm just a bloke who loves watching & supporting new music and new bands.

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system 18 Feb 2004 13:09

Alias..Bands bring their own crowd, the onus of responsibilty is on the booker to ensure the band line-up has proven it can drag a crowd in...if the venue isn't drawing the crowd then take alook at who they're booking, and then ask themselves why bigger bands refuse to play at said venue.
If certain venues treat bands like shit then word spreads like wildfire and another venue bites the dust because they will be boycott.

If my band for some reason doesnt pull my expected quota for the night then I refuse payment...it's my philosophy..why should I get paid if I didnt bring anyone...I can't in all good concience accept money when I failed to draw a crowd, but I'll be damned if I will hand over any cash because a booker made the error of booking the wrong band on the wrong night .
On the flip side, if I draw a big crowd, then I WANT RESPECT..because it's me putting my financial balls on the line to make it a big night.
And if I do not receive respect from the venue then I will take great joy in kicking them in the gut and boycotting their sorry asses.
At the end of the day , muso's dont make money , the venues do...simply equation.

Pay to play is BULLSHIT..and it wont last in Melb.


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Alias 18 Feb 2004 13:57

I agree paying to play is not a good option for bands, but if bands don't work harder to bring crowds it may be the only option in the future.

Bands should be concentrating on how to create more demand for their product….or maybe the industry needs more products that create demand?</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


DisasterBoy 21 Feb 2004 14:43

I just want to say thanks to everyone for having their say. I am in a 3-piece band just starting, trying to get gigs, and it is very helpful to hear what people think about the situation of music in Melbourne, and the venues that support us.

My band (Beautiful Disaster) are looking to play as much as possible this year and get out there, so it's great hearing venues are willing to give new bands a go without stinging them for trying.

Thanks
M@
beautifuldisasterband@hotmail.com</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Alias 24 Feb 2004 15:37

You can thank the venues by putting as much effort into attracting a crowd as you do practicing your music. Performing is the easy part.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


system 24 Feb 2004 17:38

performing is the easy part? BUUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Only if you're in a shoe gazing band doing status quo covers..</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


raven 25 Feb 2004 08:15

OK Alias, I've read all you have had to say and I CAN NOT believe you are serious?!?!?!?!
I've taken the liberty to quote you on a few things:
"But if bands work harder to bring crowds"

are you kidding us?
Each and every member of a band work damn hard. They all have M-F jobs to pay the bills, have family/friends/lovers etc., that they never see, meet in old biuldings, garages, back rooms for rehersals, somehow manage to find, through grit and determination the extra funds to promote themselves, support their passions and produce the odd demo CD or two.
While all this is going on, they are also trying to book gigs, understand unfair and misrepresented contracts and CREATE MUSIC FFS!
And all this is before they have even got to the gig!

If this isn't working hard then I don't know what is!

It's not soley up to the band to "Promote" the gig/venue, the booker is the one hired by the venue to promote.

And just for the record don't think for a minute that on top of all of the above, that each band member isn't doing his/her best to get as many bums on seats as possible!

Second quote:
"If venues are struggling to survive, bands need to start helping out"

Ummm WHAT A CROCK OF SHYTE!!!!!!!

If a venue is struggling, the venue needs to address its own financial/business plan issues with a good accountant, their bank manager and/or invester.
To expect band to now somehow financially secure income for the venue is so stupid I am lost for words!

Does that mean if a band is struggling venues need to finacially help them? if so where's the line as I have a few clients that could do with a hand out.

Band HELP enough by preparing for and turning up to a gig, getting paid next-to-nothing and drawing a crowd. That is their job, they are not there to "help" the venue survive solely on their performance.

And financially;
"Performing is the easy part"
Ever been on stage...................?????
Nope didn't think so
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MemphisNight 25 Feb 2004 12:00

I manage an indie lable. Been playing in bands, around bands and involved with bands for longer then I can remember.

I would have to say that this is the biggist scam perpertrated on what venues obviously considers nieve and stupid people.

But we're smarter then that. The Fact is if a venue is worried about attendence then what they normally do is let the door charge be the payment for the band. That way it's the performers who have to create the crowd for their money, and there is no cost to the venue.

Alias....Don't try to look intelligent by using words like "Overheads".
We're smarter then that too. We know venues have them reguardless and they all need to put on entertainment to compete with other venues.

Tell me this....If a long weekend means a venue puts on more staff, and the people don't turn up-do you not pay the staff? Worse still do you make them PAY $300 to cover that fact?

What a croc of shit. Don't insult musos' by telling them that they don't work hard enough. They work like dogs in dog hours to put on shows for little to no money to entertain people and to hope to get a contract with someone who will slice a large portion of their take. There is no wage, no secrurity and in some cases (like The Laundry) NO RESPECT.

Indie bands can't easily afford rodies. So come on Alias...Come work with these bands as a rodie for a few months...You'll be right, after all, it is an easy job right?

Lastly I'll say this. Any venue that does this is here by boycotted by me and everyone I work with.
The Laundry (among others) will be named in the contracts, Mentioned by myself, or any bands on my lable, to any and all the street mags, press, industry connections, and the general public as what they are:
Theiving Cretins out to destroy the livelyhoods of bands for their own benifit.

No one with me, or accociated with me, will ever be sucked in to such a scam (even if I have to start preassure group campaign myself)

So to all these venues.....Prepare to have your names destroyed instead. Your reputations dragged through the mud and your businesses, jobs and livelyhoods at risk.

How stupid are we now?

P.S Check Out the Apollos' Lounge group room where members and industry people gather to put a stop to shit like the Laundry at:

http://groups.msn.com/ApollosLounge


¤•MєmÞђis•∏igђTs•¤
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Alias 25 Feb 2004 12:56

You guy's should treat your bands like a business. Stop blaming all these other factors and start thinking of ways to better your own situation. Your a nothing band at the moment so start taking responsibility for yourself because no one else cares about you! (at this stage)

You should not be expecting anything off anyone at this point in time.

What you should be doing is thinking of ways to get people to your gigs yourselves! And even more importantly, how can you keep them coming back without having to nag them every time you perform.

- Maybe you need to gig less so that you can get a bigger crowd at every gig.
- Maybe you need to improve your on stage performance to make it more appealing and enjoyable for the people watching.
- Maybe if you concentrate on lighting, special effects and actually entertaining your audience, they may actually start creating some hype for you!
- Then, maybe some advertising would be appropriate once your ball is rolling.

Start thinking like you’re the biggest band in the world. They pay to book venues, they pay for their own advertising, they plan their own performance to ensure people are blown away, they make sure the lighting is good, they bring their own sound engineers…..they basically do everything themselves.

Yeah ok, they have the financial backing to do it all but you guys can still start implementing some of these theories now. Make it happen for yourselves.

It’s basic marketing and you can’t expect anyone else to do it for you. As a business you need to start thinking smarter not harder.

Start taking responsibility for yourselves! Create your own opportunity!

Venues are simply places you can perform your act. When your famous you’ll be paying huge money to play at the Rod Laver Arena.

Venues give you opportunities to perform. And if you work hard yourselves you won’t have a problem with the venues. It all pans out equal.
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Alias 25 Feb 2004 13:23

The more wankers that boycott venues, the more opportunities there will be for other bands looking for gigs.

Why do you think the Indy Initiative was axed from the Espy? I have no doubt that one of the main reasons was because the crowds weren’t as good as what they could have been. So what, are you going to boycott the Espy as well?

The more bands that boycott venues the more opportunities there will be…...

Your band is a nothing band (at this stage). The venues couldn’t give a fuck about you!…..and rightly so because you are literally a ‘nothing band’.

But, bring some people to your gigs and see how their attitudes change. Create your own demand.
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raven 25 Feb 2004 13:29

Regardless of how good a band is, special effects aside, if bands are having to PAY TO PLAY were the hell are they going to get the funds for all these extra's.

Honestly, you don't need to be an accountant to know that if a band pays out more than it earns, IT'S NOT A PROFITABLE BUSINESS you fool.

Everyone that has complained about this situation, is treating it like a business, otherwise they would not be complaining about having to pay to work.

Have you missed the point of this discussion?

To say that people who have invested 10 or more years in perfecting their craft and becoming the best that they can, before even trying to form a band, is not pre-planning and good business sense shows just how little you know about business, in any industry.

I for one WILL BE BOYCOTTING The Laundry and any other venue with a similar approach/attitude and I will be defending the rights of all people to a fair deal, be it in the music/arts industry or others.

If you think this is so fair, why don't you give your boss back your paycheck this week, and next week, see how you like it?

This is a business for most artists, otherwise they'd just be playing for their families/friends and not bother with the work, planning, writing, music, oh yes and all those special effects they currently need so badly.

I'm guessing you don't actually get out much anyway, otherwise you'd know that between the size of some of these venues, the 45 min sets with three or four bands on any given night and all the set-up between, where the hell does all this lighting and stage sets go?

Try offering some constructive help. Try getting to know a few bands, try helping them with booking a gig, having their demo listened to, try living with constant rejection from venues, recording companies, booking agents and alike and then try getting up each day and doing it again...... then tell me these people aren't committed, doing all they can and being active business people.

In any other industry, retail, commercial, service, whatever, this sort of committment would have resulted in a lot more money and a hell of a lot more respect than they are getting from the likes of The Laundry.

Don't sit on the side-lines, sucking on your scotch & coke (most likely alone and through a straw?!?) and critique others who are out there working as hard as they can and give damn fine performances to boot.

Without bands and muso's in general, Melbourne would be a shadow of what it is.

Thank God for their strength, persistence, endurance and tolerance of venues like The Laundry and fools like YOU</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Alias 25 Feb 2004 14:48

If you were in the business of selling Jam, would you boycott Coles & Safeway if they refused to stock your product? No way! You’d keep trying until they did! Otherwise you’ll lower the odds of getting to where you want to be.

And if Coles & Safeway did decide to stock your product can you imagine having to pay big money just for a place on the shelf? Yes it would suck! But that’s just the way it is!

It's simple, you need to spend money to make money and YES if your product is not profitable and it doesn’t sell you will lose lots of money.

It’s your product…not the venue’s.

So, get lots of people to your gig, work hard and hopefully your product is good enough to cover your costs and make a profit. If your product is not profitable you will lose lots of money.

Lot's of businesses lose money and go broke. Why should bands be any different?



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raven 25 Feb 2004 15:16

WRONG!!!!!

The music and the lyrics is the bands product/service and the venue set-up and promotion is the the product/service of the owners of the venue.

It is up to the venue manager/owner to select bands/performers that suit the location and the style of the venue and NOT the band to make it all magically happen for the venue.

The band is interested in making the band work, at WHATEVER venue they are at.
The venue should be making the atmosphere work for it's patrons and communit, with or without a band.
Are you honestly saying that venues need not do their own promotion/advertising etc like every other business?

Once again you've missed the point, when did the band members become business partners?!?
They are contracted by the venue to perform a service.

As you seem to love examples, here's one that actually makes sense.

If you hire a carpenter to put in a new kitchen, he needs to have access to the kitchen, the power and services to "Make the Kitchen Happen"
If you forget to allow him access to the kitchen area or turn off the power, he cannot work.
And more importantly, after the kitchen has been quoted and agreed on, just because you are a crap cook doesn't mean the carpenter did not do his job well.

Oh and just on the Coles example, I actually DO boycott shops/businesses that I feel do not at least have the intent of social consciousness so why would it be different for a venue like The Laundry?

NORMAL PEOPLE do not accept Slave Labour or Sweat Shops because of the moral and social unfairness on the labourer and yet you seem to think that a Pay To Work ethic is morally, socially and ethically OK?

By the way, would love to hear where and to whom you are intending to donate your 2 weeks salary? Perhaps you could put it toward the "Bill" at the next Laundry gig for the band to pay off the venue?

Raven</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


FunkyBill 25 Feb 2004 16:13

I can't believe this. Alias - it's becoming clearer and clearer that either:

a: you are taking the piss OR
b: you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Your arguments are half baked, and repetative, and I think you might be one of those people, who when proven wrong, will just keep digging themselves into a hole until they've ruined any possibility of a healthy outcome from the debate.

Lets just go back to one of the "facts". You are "just a bloke who loves watching & supporting new music and new bands".

What was the last "new" band you watched, and better still, what was the last "new" band you "supported". And what did you do to support them? Kick them in the nuts?

Either way, your statement above self-excluded you from offering any informed or experienced advice. Every other member who has thrown their 2c worth in is or has been in a band, has experienced the REALITY of being in a band, somthing you sorely lack.

Thats all for me - can't be bother wasting any more breath on fools.
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system 25 Feb 2004 17:28

I'm convinced Alias is the new owner of Laundry.......

(have you ever read such a crock of unmitigated shit)</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Alias 25 Feb 2004 18:22

Maybe I'm wrong?

Maybe the venues should continue to lose money while bands simply walk away disappointed that no one turned up to their gig?

Maybe you guys are right?

I’m sure you all know what your doing. I really do hope that your theories work for you guys.

I’m not a dam venue owner. I’m simply trying to explain that you all need to take responsibility for yourselves.

If venues are clamping down on bands that fail to bring good crowds, than those bands need to take a good look at what their doing and fix the problem. For their own benefit! And for the benefit of the venues, bands and the industry as a whole in the future.
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DisasterBoy 25 Feb 2004 19:22

System I am with you all the way on that one. The more I read through this guys responses the more I think he is the actual new manager/owner of Laundry. Makes perfect Sense. He isn't making any at all.

Alias, what you really should do mate is have a listen to what people are actually saying. No-one is going to stand for this scam. There are plenty of venues that will book bands, and as a new band looking to dominate the world, but not having the contacts/cash/publicity of other bigger bands, it is comforting to know that they are out there, and not all venues will do whatever it takes to get that $.

You/laundry are showing total lack of erspect to the performers and the work we all put in to just get a gig happening. Maybe instead of defending the $ you should actually listen to what people have to say.

Contaminate or Contribute - You Choose.

M@
Beautiful Disaster.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Alias 26 Feb 2004 14:34

I'm not a venue owner!

I used to play in a band once but now I'd rather just watch other new bands. The problem I have with watching bands is most of them never get any people to their gigs.

I used to go to the Indie Initiative every Thursday night at the Espy. But the room was always empty. There would be fuck all people turn up to watch, even when 4 to 5 bands were playing. I used to think to myself….surely 4 bands could get more than 40 people to a gig. It’s pathetic!

As a person in the audience watching bands there is nothing worse then being in a room with 15 other people watching 4 bands. There’s no atmosphere and I reckon you’d be better off not doing the gig at all because the bands, regardless of how good or bad, will not impress anyone. What I’m trying to say is that the people in the crowd NEED to be entertained.

I have 7 good mates that also love music and we all go to watch bands, and so many times we have made up more than half the crowd…..

Most bands do not work hard enough to get people to their gigs. Like it or hate it…from a spectators point of view you are only fucking up the already struggling live music scene. There are way to many shitty bands out there that spoil it for everyone else.

BUT, finally there is a venue in town that is saying, “Bring a crowd or pay the bill”. Yeah ok, that’s gunna suck for you guys who play in bands that can’t get people to your gigs. But for me as a spectator, at least I know when I go to the Laundry there will be a decent crowd and a decent atmosphere. And hopefully, it will weed out all the crappy bands, and build a reputation for being the place to be if you want to watch good live original bands, with a good atmosphere, good crowds, good people and good entertainment.

After reading this back I can understand why you all think I’m involved with the Laundry…but I’m not. I’ve only been there a handful of times.

It sucks for bands that don’t pull a crowd, but for spectators and bands that do pull good crowds it’s going to be fucking fantastic.

Maybe Neil should look at implementing some sort of ‘minimum attendance rate’ for bands playing at the Duke of Windsor. Obviously it would need to be a fairly low amount because most of the bands are only starting out, but there should definitely be some sort of punishment for bands who make no effort at all. If I knew there was going to be a half decent crowd every week, I’d be there every week.
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FunkyBill 26 Feb 2004 16:40

yeah - a punishment for bands that don't bring many people.

How about we hire some goons to break their fingers - that'll "weed out the crappy bands" for good Alias!! A fitting "punishment" for a "crappy band" don't you think?

Anyway - to bring you back on your previous point of "Maybe I'm wrong" - well, yes you are. But I can understand your thinking. You just (obviously) lack the experience to be able to concrete your argument. No-one is saying that it is ok for bands to "just show up and play" and not worry about getting people to the gig. I am in agreement - that is shit on behalf of the band. But putting on any kind of gig is a risky thing - and sharing the risk rather than lumping it on the band is the best approach. Everyone shares the profit. Why not the risk aswell?

Maybe Alias you can manage a young band - seems like you've got more knowhow than anyone else that has been doing it for most of their lives.

GAH!!! I wasn't supposed to post anything!!! hehehe I guess you bring it out in me Alias. (sorry if these posts have been getting sarcastic - I'm not a sarcastic person honestly!!) This whole yarning on a computer thing is just wierd - noty like yarning over a beer!!



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FunkyBill 26 Feb 2004 16:43

Oh and BTW (correct me if I am wrong Neil) - I believe the Indie Initiative is set up to educate young bands. Not weed them out of the live scene.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


DisasterBoy 26 Feb 2004 18:40

I understand the point of view of the band being responsible for a crowd showing, but as your probably aware you might have 50 people until the night, and then 30 go awol for some reason or another. Are you going to come to a gig if your kids sick even though your best mate ois playing and you told him you would go? You can't be responsible for other people, just you turning up to play, the rest is up to each individual. I have been to gigs when there has been 5 people in the crowd, and although the atmosphere isn't there it is up to each 'spectator' to get out of it what they will. A band can still fuck shit up if there is no people in the room, they just don't get the appreciation for it.

Coming from a band starting out it is hard to get gigs, and you can't proove yourself as a 'good' band since if there are 5 meathead people in the crowd that are more interested in getting tanked than actually watching and listening, then they could potentially be branded a 'crappy' band on such a forum as this.

Everyone is responsible for the success of a gig, and it IS up to the band to promote themselves.

M@</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


NeilWedd 27 Feb 2004 10:14

The II is a business. I lost the Espy because the owner believed that on the numbers it wasn't working out. He forgot that it "weeded out" good from ordinary. No band is bad, because the fact is that they can play music. Great gift.
The II does educate bands in the business. The first lesson, if you can't bring a crowd you have a problem. If the band is promising, you get another chance. Otherwise you hqve a problem.
I give bands a seminar before they play. They need to know what I expect.
I put in a huge effort and I expect the bands to do the same.
I have used my contacts to get bands a review and a preview in Inpress.
This is a huge step for most bands. If you do well and that means good crowd first and ability second. The band that has a crowd may not be the best but they have an ability to promote themselves. As they gain confidence in front of crowds their music matures. The audience follows the band until the friends say not again or they turn into fans.
I must balance between the art and the commerce. If I support art, I lose the gig. That means 10-20 musicians don't get to play every week.
As I have told people forever you must support each other. That is the only way things will grow.
The venue supplies the stage. It supplies advertising, PA, crew (sometimes). It pays its rent. It has to live. It is a business. A successful business provides a good atmosphere for its workers.
Bands must bring crowds. Most venues don't have people just turn up whatever is happening.
In a good venue the crowd will enjoy themselves. The band must work to win the crowd over.
It is business. If you don't treat it as one, then expect the venue to treat you the same way. You may have a few thousand dollars invested but a venue can have a million dollars or more invested.
Alias has some good points. This is a very interesting discussion.
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DisasterBoy 27 Feb 2004 18:54

It's great that there are people out there, like yourself Neil, that are willing to give your bands a go, and although I havent been diretly involved as yet with II (as I am hoping in the not too distant future)help them out as far as you can to develop them. I don't think there is such a things as a musician with no talent. I think bands do fall down because of the business side of things alot, because they don't know the industry or how it works.

How do you decide what bands go into II and which you pass up?

M@</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


MemphisNight 1 Mar 2004 17:19

Alias. Are you going through a breakdown?. Did your wife leave ya or something?

No one said anything about boycotting venues for not putting on bands or even for not paying them (I happen to love open mike nights)

I was talking about those Crooks who MAKE THE BANDS PAY to play at the venue.

If you think you can vain intelligence by twisting the story or using cool slang like - "wanker", then maybe you need to have a good hard look at this forum and the replies that YOU are getting.

I agree that it sound like you have some involvement in The Laundry.

Looks like you may now be the only one who will.

</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


system 1 Mar 2004 23:43

feign intelligence......not vain intelligence.....


feign , ie - pretend, or assume the posture without the substance.

vain , ie - vainity, to adores ones image.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Alias 2 Mar 2004 12:02

It's not just 'pay to play'....

If you bring people to your gig you don't pay a cent to play.
If you bring lots of people you get paid to play.
If you bring stuff all people you have to pay to play.

You guys must get fuck all people to your gigs.... don't worry about it. Just keep complaining and blaming everyone else for your inability to pull a crowd. After all…it can’t possibly be your fault that fuck all people turn up to watch you play.

The fact is if your bands could pull a half decent crowd you would not be complaining like a bunch of little girls. From a spectator’s point of view im glad the Laundry are cracking down on bands that make no effort to pull a crowd.

It’s so funny to hear you all cracking the shits with me just because I agree with what the Laundry are doing. The only reason why you guys would be pissed off is because you must pull shit crowds to your gigs.

Maybe one day you’ll realise the reason no one comes to your gigs is because you are not entertaining to watch. The quicker you realise that and stop blaming everyone else the better.
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Alias 2 Mar 2004 12:11

Maybe if you spent as much time trying to pull good crowds as you do looking up words in the dictionary you might actually get a few people to your gigs.

I'm sure everyone is happy now knowing the meaning of the words Feign & Vain. Keep up the good work.

Maybe a career in teaching would be better suited?
</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


ChicoT 2 Mar 2004 16:46

Alias
Although I agree with the fact that bands do need to work on promotion and build a crowd otherwise it will make life difficult for them. However you are being insensitive to the issue. For example Deborah Hocking posted a message saying that she recently had her cd launch at the laundry and pulled a strong crowd while the venue still managed to rip her off. Yet you keep posting message after message supporting the laundry booker for what he's doing.

So let me get this right. You're telling us that we should be applauding and supporting a venue who rips off band or artist such as Deborah Hocking for working their ass off and making a night a successful business venture.

As you have mentioned earlier, you have not performed before. So you don't realise the effort that goes into performing and promotion. Fair enough we don't bring crowds, we don't get paid, everyone loses and the scene dies. Good point, everyone's gotta do something about it and musicmob are. But why should my band play at a venue who is giving me a vague verbal contract with terms and conditions that put my band at financial risk depending on the amount of alcohol is sold.

Imagine what it would be like for musicians to get on stage and have to worry about how many drinks the crowd is buying?

Imagine going to work and having to worry how many sales your company will make that day to determine wether you get paid at all?

Music is art, not business. However without the business the music scene would die, so the business needs to strive and grow and ultimately form an industry. In this case the business affects the mindframe of the performer during the show.

Imagine going to Rod Laver Arena and watching the singer perform, and while he's performing he's stressing about how many beverages are being sold. It affects the performance, and yes all this stuff does happen behind the scenes, but the laundry structure takes it to an extreme.

Alias you make some good comments from a punter or industry point of view but you are completely insensitive to the musician's point of view. You should read all the posts that the musicians have left and take more care before making another seemingly arrogant post.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


system 3 Mar 2004 10:11

Alias is just a bitter failed muso who's taking out his dissapointments on other musos who still dare to try.

He hasn't bothered to read all the other posts left......perhaps he's living in denial, but I still reckon he's got a vested interest in Laundry.

How else could you explain his blinkered one track train of thought?

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Alias 3 Mar 2004 16:14

I'm actually I really good bloke.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


raven 3 Mar 2004 16:32

....................Even if you do say so yourself, right?</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


NeilWedd 3 Mar 2004 18:00

I pick bands by listening to the demo and working out a lineup of bands from the same vein of material. 3 pop bands, 3 metal bands etc.
Music is business. First rule. Don't whinge if you are treating it as art.
It is wrong that venues make bands pay to play. Just boycott them.
Venues have a lot of money invested. Bands have some. Ratio is probably 50:1.
The venue needs to earn money to live. Musicians should be paid from the door or bar (if the gig is free) for their services.
Alias is not from the LAundry. He raises some valid points.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


DisasterBoy 3 Mar 2004 18:04

I am sure your a great bloke Alias, just ask your friends right...? Now where did they go? I was sure I saw one you left laying around. Maybe at the bar buying one of your over priced drinks.

Anyway, it has been said before that everyone is responsible for making it work, the venues needs to understand the work that goes into getting a song happening, and the perfomrers need to understand venuse have to survive as well.

As much as I disagree with what he says, I think that Alias knows how everyone thinks about his 1 dimensional view.

M@
Beautiful Disaster.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


BitterVic 4 Mar 2004 09:39

One of the most frustrating things (as I'm sure Neil can confirm) is when one player on a night (ie the promoter, or one band of a bill of 3 or 4) puts in crap loads of effort to pull numbers to a show while everyone else just turns up and plays. The "gig" starts weeks before the night you actually play- if a band can't make that kind of effort and commitment then it's not worthwhile. While the concept of pay to play is totally screwed at least this Laundry incident might focus people's minds on what agreeing to play a show actually means.

http://www.somewhereinsummer.com</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


system 4 Mar 2004 10:57

that's a reasonable point Bittervic.

If you as a band agree to play in a line up with plenty of time to organize and rally your support base, then there is no reason or excuse not to pull a decent crowd, regardless what spot on the bill you play.
May I go as far as to suggest these reasonable expectations...

HEADLINE: Min- 80 people
If you choose to headline a gig at any midsize Melb venue on any given w/e night, if you can't guarentee 80 paying punter, then WTF are you headlining for???? It is your moral obligation to pull this minimum, or else don't agree to play the gig.

MiDDLE BAND-Min - 30 people

You've got the optimum timeslot, you don't have the pressure of headlining..you're guarenteed a crowd....you've no excuse not to pull a min of 30 friends.

FIRST BAND -Min- 15 people.
So what if you're the first band on at 9:00pm? You've been given the opportunity, exposure and respect to be included on the line-up...make the effort to drag 15 mates along. It's called RESPECT.
And encourage your mates to stick around to see the other bands, there is nothing worse than seeing the first band given the opportunity to play on this bill, only to see them pack up and leave with their renta-crowd as soon as their set is over...COMPLETE DISRESPECT. If I ever see this happen on our bills I NEVER INVITE THE BAND BACK ...EVER.

3 bands, with a collective minimum crowd of 135 paying punters....

MINIMUM on any thurs, fri or Sat night.

If the Duke, Empress, Espy etc...pulled those numbers on these nights EVERY TIME, then how brilliant would the music scene be???</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


geekboy 4 Mar 2004 11:16

currently attendance at my bands gigs is up and down like a yoyo. sometimes we pull 15-20 sometimes 150. there are various reasons i'd attribute to this. even if we are confident of pulling a good crowd we never ask for the headline slot when arranging a gig. this usually illicits strange looks or responses from other bands or bookers. a lot of people assume that we can always guarentee a huge crowd but that is not always the case.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


MrLoud 4 Mar 2004 12:49

Great discussion peoples, Alias I think you make some good points & valid ones, from a business perspective.
However where you lose my confidence is with your lack of knowledge regarding a muso's workload/commitment.
Don't comment on things if you don't fully understand - because to you , the 'punter' only ever will see the show. Not gonna re hash over things already explained.
Also, to some degree your comments were insulting, because it is very personal to us, hence the emotion displayed via some of the posts. So lets not get personal anymore.!! Got that out of the way.
Now, the Laundry, its not the only venue in Melbourne, I've played there b4 -I don't think its f'ing great, there are so many better venues around, lets clear up that fact immediately.
Alias you're taking the place up to be Rod Laver or something - its no f'ing Holy Grail of venues. We as bands/muso's don't owe it anything! Guys, if you don't like - Boycott it. That simple. F@ck them.
I say let them run the business they way they want.
I am tipping mr and mrs laundry have done their balls purchasing that 'venue' and as any panic stricken novice business owner, they're expecting full returns from their investment immediately. I may be wrong, but I'm sure that is a valid assumption to some degree. Having delt with pub owners for some time now - that typically is a constant stress amongst new owners.
There has to be better communication between bands and venues - together there is the ability to make every night a success. We are gauging success in this instance with 'payers'. Its very do able - I've seen it - 2 words - Indie Initiative. I have been part of many great nights, simply due to a bit of organzation and communication between bands and organizers(venues).
Bringing 5 of your mates to a gig is bullsh1te and you are wasting not only your own time but the venues and the other bands on the bill. Fact! Showcase your gigs. If you want residency - do covers.
I think they are fair/realistic numbers, SYSTEM, if that approach was taken, they would be more happy venues & happy bands.
Another thing, again SYSTEM a good point, tell your mates to stick around, it does make a difference. If your doing handouts/giveaways - do it at the end of the night, that way the night stays busy. People will stick around to get their free cd/tshirt/beer. We've all gotta do our part to make the night a success - reps from each band should walk around and talk to punters etc. I'm preaching now - I'll stop.
Good luck Laundry, the live music scene in Melbourne is a very close nit community and your only shooting yourself in the foot by implementing these conditions. It's a real shame they f'ed Deb around the way they did.
Here's a tip, Get a Jukebox, have happy hours, a cc - lets see how long you keep your door open. Live music does not need you. You will realise this soon enough.

l8r.

FYI: I use 'f'ing' because my Day gig has a firewall in place that frucking inhibits my evil tongue.
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Arn70 5 Mar 2004 22:35

People on MDMA, speed, etc, don't drink alcohol.
This silly rule should be aimed at DJ's.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


growupkids 10 Mar 2004 17:28

ok this has pissed me off long enough. I am amazed at the infantile level of intelligence this debate has shown. I am not surprised that the majors in the country have no time for Australian bands because if they are like some of the views expressed then that says it all.

Venues do not owe bands a favour and do not have to open up for you to play in front of 2 fans. I am not surprised they are charging you to play because you have NO commercial viability. Tell me one reason why a venue should lose money for a band's ego. It seems that all the bands on this MB want something for nothing. Spend money on me, make me play for free etc. You hate the majors, Australian Idol and so on and for the language goodness gracious me I fear for this country. When the natives can't spell, construct a reasonable debate without swearing and calling people names Neil Wedd crack down on this because it takes one person to sue Indieinitiative because of the nonsense on its message board to shut it down.
Artists, show some intelligence and respect and debate this issue sensibly. Instead of moaning like little children, fix the problem. Perform only when you have a crowd to bring and raise the level of the intelligence of this board.
PS dont flame me my lawyers are watching</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Arn70 10 Mar 2004 19:16

An interesting quote :

"By doing well, which means bringing a crowd along and playing well, bands have a chance to progress their careers. A good gig brings you to the attention of bookers and can help you get gigs on the weekend".

Where did I find it? On Indieinitiative web site. Sorry in advance if sombody posted it earlier in this forum as I didn't read every message. Link below.

http://www.indieinitiative.com/duke.asp

Bye!

Arn</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


raven 10 Mar 2004 21:33

OK "growupkids" I hope the following comments meet your standards of intelligence and verbal correctness.

I don't think there has been any suggestion of bands being owed anything by a venue, the issue is why should the bands owe anything to the venue? Its a business transaction after all.
No-one wants to see a empty room, not the venue owner, the booker, the bands nor the patrons but to say:
"perform only when you have a crowd" suggests that you expect new, unknown and/or unsigned bands to somehow pre-sell tickets?!?
I'm assuming we are not talking about a gig at Rod Laver Arena but at a local bar/pub or similar?

There is no way of assuring a big turn-out, no matter what you do in advance, just as there's no way a store owner knows who will or will not come through the door each and every day.

No one wants to see venues make a loss. It would not make sense now would it? Even the most unintelligent of us here know that without venues willing to have live music, bands suffer the most.
But by the same equation, you have to admit that if a venue isn't making enough money, to simpify the issue by blaming the performance of one or two bands for their losses is ludicrous.

Businesses need to address ALL their overheads up to and including their own over stretching of their finances when initally purchasing a business.

Using the example of The Laundry just for a moment; that venue has been in business for a very long time and seemed to have developed both a following within the music community and patrons alike.
What suddenly changed over night?
The only recent variable is the new ownership and/or booker.

And yes, maybe the new owners want to make a bigger profit margin but maybe they also might need to make a bigger profit magin due to additional overheads which we are not privy to.
And before your "lawyers"(yes he seems to be able to afford more than one!) suggest that I have in any way made false or suggestive statements, let me assure you, I am only making a point based on a hypothesis not on hearsay or slanderous statements.

As someone who does not belong to a band, a business woman who is VERY interested in making a profit and a regular patron of various venues who likes to see a strong crowd with great atmosphere, I will be the first to say that its always a bit of a let down when a venue is all but empty.

However, if the band (s) playing is strong, entertaining and effective, I can hardly say to one of them, "where's your crowd?"
They could just as likely say to me "well why are you here with only one or two other people?"

We all have a responsibility to make Melbourne live music work.

If a band, on any given night, has performed well, then they SHOULD NOT be expected to dip into their pockets to fill the bar quota.

If they have performed shockingly, they should not be invited back. Simple! Bands that don't get repeat work soon die off anyway.

What concerns me is, in the interm, how many potentially great bands, incredible song writers and amazing musicians we might cast aside in the time between new and newly signed?

And just one other point:
I'm sure Neil can take care of himself however, potentially suing indieinitaitive for the comments of a third party on an open forum doesn't really say much for intelligent input does it?

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growupkids 11 Mar 2004 09:10

Well Raven and indeed anyone else who wants to post in reply to this message. First of all I am not a venue owner, second I am not in a band and third, hello take some responsibility for your comments on a messageboard. The internet is riddled with legal action brought against messageboard owners for libellous and slanderous posts. If i was the owner of this board I would moderate this board and weed out the infantile comments and slurs by people who are showing that they didnt complete year 12 let alone go to any institute of higher learning.

Now back to the point. Bands have the sole responsibility of pulling punters to come and see them. If you want a venue to foot the bill then join their payroll and be employed by them. Perhaps bands have to go to so much effort and have to form gig groups because the PUBLIC ARE NOT INTERESTED in your noise oh sorry music. Face facts if people dont want to see you live they dont dig your music. You should then go out there and build up your fan base before going out to perform. With the internet and other resources this should not be a problem. I am sick of whinging bands full of jealousy slandering Holly Valance, Kylie and any other pop act who are making it. You are all jealous because you feel that someone else owes you a favour, get over it !

Now stop this silly vitrtiol against venues and see it from their point of view.
They are only imposing pay for play because, they are paying for you to play to empty venues. They cannot afford this too long and soon will give up on live music all together which may not be a bad thing if they have to put up with bands like the ones who have been posting. There are ways and means to debate this. Screaming angry abuse like spoilt children is not one of them. Now if all you bands continue like this good luck to you. How many of you will eventually do anything with your music. Very few with attitudes like that.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


raven 11 Mar 2004 10:37

Seeing as you like to use "clever" words

Vitriol: Bitterly abusive feeling or expression (also any of the sulfates of metals such as zinc sulfate)

Vitrtiol: never heard of it?

And I think you MAY get a few people disagree with you saying that bands are SOLELY responsible for venue crowds?
But hey that's your opinion and I'm sure it's valid to you.

That's what forums like this are about; opinions and suggestions</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


growupkids 11 Mar 2004 10:58

Hi Raven, apologies about the typo error there. However, debate the issue without getting personal. That is all I am after, you actually seem quite reasonable, but if one disagree with me does that give one the right to slander me, call me names etc. Yes I know that hasn't happened to me yet, but look at some of the responses. As regards bands responsibility er ! pardon me who are the punters going to see ? Create some interest in yourself and then people will come to see you. You can have a gig that is packed full of punters if you and the rest of the acts put some effort into it.
Hey I am no apologist for the venues btw I dont like having to fork out $300 or $500 to hire a venue if they don't make their minimum bar spend. For this reason I would not perform live if that is the case and use videos and my website to generate interest. I would rather spend the money to get my track on radio than ON a bar or a club. I would only go to a live venue if I can make it work for ME not for anyone else (the venue).
Bands have the right to refuse to play at a venue. YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO CALL THEM NAMES BECAUSE THEY WANT TO CHARGE YOU FOR THE FACILITIES !</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


system 13 Mar 2004 12:51

your lawyers are watching??? MMMUUUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Alias, Growupkids, pinhead...whatever you're calling yourself...

You are so out of touch with the attitudes/mood/relationships between the bands/venues it's almost laughable.

Nobody here has said it's the sole responsibilty for venues to generate interest in the bands performing.
You refuse point blank to listen to other peoples points of view , and by the reaction and numbers joining in the chorus of indignation against Laundrys supposed 'new policy', it's pretty obvious something is not kosher in their behaviour.

Bands are doing the best they can, some arent pulling their weight...and they won't get many gigs unless they pull their finger out. But on the whole most bands embrace the challenge and drag in the punters.The DJ culture is on the wane..pokies are evil...and with the new smoking regulations being slowly implemented, venues have got to re-inforce a healthy relationship with bands and artists who at the end of the day will be their saving grace.

The opinions expressed on this thread indicate the majority of the music scene in Melbourne are dismayed and dissapointed with Laundrys direction and treatment of bands...and they will reap their just rewards in the long run...

So Alias, Growup , whatevere you choose to call yourself.....I think you're the one that needs to take a good long hard look at yourself and try some maturing.

Thats the truth...sue me if you don't like it.




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raven 14 Mar 2004 08:45

You lost me at "debate the issue without getting personal" growupkids.

In your past posts you have referred to people on this forum and band members as follows:
"infantile level of intelligence"
"show some intelligence"
"people who are showing that they didn't complete year 12 let alone go to any institute of higher learning"
"your noise oh sorry music"

After those comments you can hardly complain about people becoming passionate and occassionally adding a few colourful adjectives to express their passions.
Having a BA, Dip. or Ph.D does not make someone naturally intelligent or interesting, nor does it stop them from using colourful language etc.
examples:
(i) Paul Keating at almost every question time in Parliament
(ii) John Elliot at almost every Carlton football match
(iii) Bob Hawke after one or two beers

The list goes on.................................

As for your comment on spending $300-500 on the band "promoting" itself on the net. Here is a quick Accounting Music Lesson 1O1

Equipment to start-up band
Electric Guitar $2000.00
Electric Bass $2000.00
Drum Kit $2000.00
Amps and Accessories $2000.00
Rehersal costs
1 day per wk x 13 weeks
$20.00 fuel + 10.00 lunch $1560.00 (four band members)
calls/emails to pubs etc. $ 100.00 (10.00/pw x 10 wks)
Replacement of gear $ 200.00 (strings etc.)

Cost of recording a 5 track Demo CD
Studio Time (min.) $ 500.00
Graphic Artist $ 500.00 (CD Cover & Inlay)
1000 CD Reproduced $2000.00
Website Developmet Cost $ 500.00 (min.)
Cost of Web Hosting $ 400.00 (p/a)

Cost of Sending Off 500 CD to Venues/Labels etc.
Mail cost @1.50 each $ 750.00
Follow-up calls/emails/mail $ 150.00

Total $14660.00

This is just bare min. and does not include all the PR and networking work involved, the hours lost when other people are working and all the personal sacrifices.

Bands playing at pubs etc. is like starting an apprenticeship and just like an apprenticeship you get better as you improve your skills. Even a first year bricklayer or hairdresser gets paid something!
All the technology in the world cannot replace live performing.

All the great Aussie bands started as pub bands. AC/DC. Midnight Oil, INXS, Men At Work, Mondo Rock etc...............
And I'm sure that when they started they were not the professional crowd pulling act they later became.
Imagine if INXS or AC/DC had been forced to "Pay to Play"? Would their music be apart of our culture, our memories and our lifestyle today? I doubt it!

You see EVERY musician has already paid to play long before any of us get to hear them and sure some guys are bad now and may always be bad but if they are not given the opportunity how will we or them ever know?

And lastly just a quick question:
Would you be prepared to invest $15-20K into your career and then accept it if your boss said to you;
"you're new so for the next 12 months it will cost you $300 pw to work here"
Would you do it? I know I wouldn't!!!!!!

Congratulations to each and every musician, artist writer etc., for your strength, your endurance and your committment to your craft and your profession.
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growupkids 14 Mar 2004 15:28

Raven,

Here is an education lesson for you:

1. Music is a business.
2. You invest in your craft.
3. You invest in your marketing.
4. YOU ONLY PERFORM GIGS WHEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE TO PERFORM TO.
otherwise busk. It costs nothing, no pay for play etc.
5. Did you really think pay to play is a new concept ? Hello it has been going on for years. What about buying onto an artist tour ?
6. For crying out loud I am sick of all the whinging that is what really got to me. I am an artist who has invested over $50,000 into my music career at various stages. Whether that is to record an album, buy studio gear, hire a bar and do a show, hire dancers, hire session musicians, hire producers and so on.
7. VENUES AND EVERYONE ELSE HAS THEIR OWN BUSINESS IF YOU USE THEIR FACILITIES EXPECT TO PAY FOR IT AND YES YOU ARE PAYING FOR ELECTRICITY AND GAS AND SO ON. AS FOR THE COMMENT ABOUT WORK, IT DOESNT EVEN WARRANT A RESPONSE BUT I WILL GIVE YOU ONE. EMPLOYMENT IS NOT THE SAME AS CONTRACTING OK.
8. I love MY music and will invest in MY music and not wait for someone else to do it. Do you need to be taught how to promote your act ? Ok
Each member in a band can bring at least 5 people to a gig and should aim to bring 10 or 20. You go to a venue and say to them we will bring 50 people to this gig. Automatic NO PAY FOR PLAY. IF YOU PROVIDE BUMS ON SEATS THERE IS NO ARGUMENT TO THAT. IF YOU CAN'T GUARANTEE THAT THEN CANCEL THE GIG.
9. Presell the tickets for your minimum numbers and anything above that is a bonus. If you put an ad in the paper then presell the tickets then you will know if you are getting anyone to the gig. If only 2 want to show up then what do you do. You can foot the bill of the venue if you want or you arrange a private showcase for the 2 people at a venue that will cost peanuts to hire. Letting them know only 2 paying customers will turn up. You have that power. STOP EXPECTING EVERYTHING TO BE HANDED ON A PLATE. Thats it. Now that is the last word I am saying on this and my messsage to you has been sent so dont waste your time replying to it because I would not be reading it.
10 It is your business you run it the way you want to and so should venues and if you dont like it dont go there we are living in a democracy and not in a flipping fascist state. Capitalism is all about buying and selling and if no one is buying your music then sell something that they want to buy and give them your music for free.

OVER AND OUT - TAKE MY COMMENTS SERIOUSLY BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN THERE DONE IT AND WORN THE T-SHIRT. I HAVE LOST MONEY ON A GIG AND MADE MONEY FROM A GIG. I HAVE LOST MONEY ON A RECORD AND MADE MONEY FROM A RECORD. I WONT LOSE MONEY ON BEHALF OF A LAZY PERSON WHO IS EXPECTING ME TO DO ALL THE WORK FOR THEM.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


raven 14 Mar 2004 17:41

well well well....... "will the real growupkids please stand up"..........

Just one last point. Contract work is employment thats why it's called WORK. Just check out the ads in the paper and/or online, people get Contract Work all the time and yes they get paid.

But enough of that.......
your comments your caps-lock yelling and your admissions (and omissions! yes even us plebs can read between the lines) speak volumes to me and to everyone else reading this.

Good luck to you Growupkids/Alias or whomever you are, I wish you as much success (and financial reward) as you offer the artists of Melbourne

Raven</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


NeilWedd 15 Mar 2004 09:52

The last couple of posts are telling.
It costs money to play. This means that you either recoup the money you spent to play or you lose money if you don't get enough people. If you lose money you would see it as a promotional expense. You would hope that it was money well spent and that you made every effort to impress the crowd and hopefully sold CD's and T-shirts.
It is very important in marketing terms to get your message out. So either you sell or giveaway CD's (everybody loves a freebie) or sell T-shirts. That means you get your message out.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Gladys 15 Mar 2004 11:11

Responses to "growupkids" arguments (many of which have already been addressed, but seem to keep coming up...)

“1. Music is a business. “
***WRONG. Music is an artform. Selling the artform is the business. However, it does sound like whatever "music" growupkids is involved in is very much looked upon with very little creative soul. The thing is, growupkids, you come from a different gene pool. More people eat McDonalds than dine at a fine restaurant - just as more people listen to marketed pop music (the fast food of music) than the small ratio of music enthusiasts that invest time in finding what music means to them. Therefore, your business ethics are great if all you want from music is money. But for people who want original, thought provoking, inspiring, mood altering music to prevail, then your ethics are a cancer on those who INVEST more than just money into their ARTFORM.

“2. You invest in your craft.”
***AGREED.

“3. You invest in your marketing.”
***AGREED.

“4. YOU ONLY PERFORM GIGS WHEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE TO PERFORM TO.
otherwise busk. It costs nothing, no pay for play etc.”
***AGREED. BUT: don't expect Billy's school bands first gig to pack the place with beer hungry patrons that are going to spend $50 each on booze. Give them a break. Book them with a band that can pull punters and give them some experience. Pair them with bands that can show them the ropes of marketing and advertising. Don't charge them $1200 for a bung bar take.

“5. Did you really think pay to play is a new concept ? Hello it has been going on for years. What about buying onto an artist tour ? “
***HELLO? Yes hello. Hello yourself… Who said that Pay To Play is a new concept. Who are you arguing with here? Yourself by the sounds of it. The point is that in the form that it's taken with Laundry, they can expect to have their Indie Band interest drop off the chart. But that shouldn’t worry you right?

“6. For crying out loud I am sick of all the whinging that is what really got to me. I am an artist who has invested over $50,000 into my music career at various stages. Whether that is to record an album, buy studio gear, hire a bar and do a show, hire dancers, hire session musicians, hire producers and so on.”
***WHATS YOUR POINT HERE??? Your sick of whingeing? Good for you. You just keep forking out for your session musicians, $50K album, producers and whatever else you think you need to pay money for to call yourself a musician. It is becoming obvious that your definition of a musician is vastly different to the majority of this board. (See point 1). You see, what we are doing is making music. What you are doing is making a PRODUCT. (Yuck-Big Mac burgers never really done it for me.) Now don’t get me wrong, I realise the importance of marketing and promotion, but what comes first for you? The music or the packaging? You know, before the invention of the gramophone, people like you couldn’t exist.

“7. VENUES AND EVERYONE ELSE HAS THEIR OWN BUSINESS IF YOU USE THEIR FACILITIES EXPECT TO PAY FOR IT AND YES YOU ARE PAYING FOR ELECTRICITY AND GAS AND SO ON. AS FOR THE COMMENT ABOUT WORK, IT DOESNT EVEN WARRANT A RESPONSE BUT I WILL GIVE YOU ONE. EMPLOYMENT IS NOT THE SAME AS CONTRACTING OK. “
***Ok, judging by the fact this is all in capitals, and doesn’t really make sense – I am thinking this is a point you lost in your emotion. Can you please reiterate exactly what it is you are trying to say? Employment is employment, whether it is contract work or permanent full time 9-5ing. (Eg: “I will EMPLOY you to dig 1 hole in my back yard” and “I will EMPLOY you to dig as many holes in my back yard between the hours of 9am and 5pm, 5 days per week, as you can, indefinitely).
So, apart from clearing that up, I am still unsure of your point. Please elaborate.

“8. I love MY music and will invest in MY music and not wait for someone else to do it. Do you need to be taught how to promote your act ? Ok
Each member in a band can bring at least 5 people to a gig and should aim to bring 10 or 20. You go to a venue and say to them we will bring 50 people to this gig. Automatic NO PAY FOR PLAY. IF YOU PROVIDE BUMS ON SEATS THERE IS NO ARGUMENT TO THAT. IF YOU CAN'T GUARANTEE THAT THEN CANCEL THE GIG. “
***Apart the rant about how much you love your own music, and are prepared to invest in it (I believe that is the case for the majority of those on this board), you go on to offer to TEACH us how to promote our act. And then babble out the same bollocks that Alias keeps dribbling. So the band has to put their balls out on the line, and GARAUNTEE a certain attendance, or else they – to use Alias’ words, have a “punishment” imposed upon them in the form of a nasty bar bill big enough to cripple any struggling band. So where’s the lesson on promotion you promised us??

“9. Presell the tickets for your minimum numbers and anything above that is a bonus. If you put an ad in the paper then presell the tickets then you will know if you are getting anyone to the gig. If only 2 want to show up then what do you do. You can foot the bill of the venue if you want or you arrange a private showcase for the 2 people at a venue that will cost peanuts to hire. Letting them know only 2 paying customers will turn up. You have that power. STOP EXPECTING EVERYTHING TO BE HANDED ON A PLATE. Thats it. “
*** HMMMM - Can you please point out to me where it implies that musicians expect everything to be handed to them on a plate? Can you please tell me where it says musicians don’t care about playing to 2 people? Can you please tell me where is says that musicians expect the venue owner to pull all of the people. Sure there are dodgy bands out there who just turn up and play. Does that mean that everyone suffers? Ticketing an event just isn’t practical in some situations. Sure, maybe if you’ve got “Dancers” and “Session musos” and “Producers” to pay for, you obviously are putting on a bit of a pop extravaganza event. But believe, me, the clientele that I attract are there for the music. Not the producers. Not the dancers. Not for the text-book produced pop that seems to so easily fit the description of a “business” that you talk of. The difference between you and me is: you are a businessman engulfing your logic around music (once again- yuck). I am a musician trying to fit my passion and soul and creativity into your predetermined world of black and white. But I don’t mind! I am not whinging!! WHY??? BECAUSE GOOD MUSIC WILL ALWAYS PREVAIL!!!!! There may be more trial and error, and more bands fall by the wayside – but good on them for giving it a lash and daring to be different rather than becoming another singing, dancing, text-book entertainer capable of cracking the 12-15 year old teenage girl market.

“Now that is the last word I am saying on this and my messsage to you has been sent so dont waste your time replying to it because I would not be reading it.
10 It is your business you run it the way you want to and so should venues and if you dont like it dont go there we are living in a democracy and not in a flipping fascist state. Capitalism is all about buying and selling and if no one is buying your music then sell something that they want to buy and give them your music for free.”
***The sentence “If you don’t like it, don’t go there” pretty much sums up the purpose, and ultimate resolution of this thread (not that I think this will be resolved!). You see “growupkids”, that is exactly what is happening. People are CHOOSING not to play at a venue that imposes such system as Laundry has.
***But also, to bring you up on another point here: “If no one is buying your music, then sell something that they want to buy…” – please, musicians of Indie Intitative – DO NOT fall into this trap. Your music is your music – if people don’t understand it enough to buy it – keep moving, keep evolving, but above all – keep being yourself – playing your own music, being inspired, not di


fester 15 Mar 2004 17:52

Righty oh then!Some very angry and bitter people by the sounds of it.You don't like a show on T.V then you switch over;don't wanna pay to play then abort the venue.Is it that hard?</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


quacksalver 16 Mar 2004 01:23

An "Education" Lesson huh? I have always been lead to believe that any given lesson has the intention of education. However after reading the babble posted here by 'growupkids' I realise that is possible to quite easily achieve the opposite. How about a lesson on Education?? I'm sure that could be useful for such a grown up kid.

Where is the latest round of Centrifugal Bumble-puppy being held Gladys?? Damn those limpopo elves can run...and the sound track is amazing!!!</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Gladys 16 Mar 2004 12:18

Growup, to pull you up on another one of (the many) alarming statements you have made:

"Perhaps bands have to go to so much effort and have to form gig groups because the PUBLIC ARE NOT INTERESTED in your noise oh sorry music"

What are you referring to by way of "gig groups" here. I certainly HOPE you are not talking about the brilliant initative "Music Mob" are you?

If so, not only have you insulted every band affiliated with it, ("noise - oh sorry music" - jeez - I wish I could be face to face with you right now and see what kind of sad and foolish person you really are), it also shows your absolute zero level of open-mindedness. This is a group of people who are dedicated to supporting and enjoying local and original music for the MUSIC! Not because of they heard it on a soft-drink commercial.

This is a level of thinking you sadly lack, and prove by saying in the next sentence:

"Face facts if people dont want to see you live they dont dig your music. You should then go out there and build up your fan base before going out to perform."

This means that you expect people to come along to see you play, without ANY idea of what you might be like, but instead, purely based on hype and clever marketing. Is this right?? You are admitting to using music as a product that doesn't need to have any quality or depth, so long as it has good advertising and slick afdvertising. Selling sand to an arab so to speak?

GAH!

If I have misinterpreted your definition of "gig groups", I apologise, however, I do ask that you are clearer when insinuations in the future.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Alias 16 Mar 2004 14:31

Went and watched 4 unsigned bands with some mates on Friday the 5th of March. Excluding my friends and I there were only 14 people watching the 4 bands.

Went to a different place on Friday the 12th March and 5 bands were playing. Excluding my friends and I only 22 people were in the room with us.

Very disappointing.

What made it worse was once each band finished performing they'd be out the door as quick as a flash.

A word of advice?

If you are in a band, team up with 3 other bands and book shows together. Once you've finished performing stick around and support each other. At least if no people come to watch you perform the room is still half full with band members and girl/boy friends.

How bad does it look when everyone leaves straight after performing?....it's just rude. If 4 bands are performing at a venue together EVERY band member from EVERY band should be there ready to support the first band and you should all stay until the last band has finished. It's just good ethics.

Bands need to learn the skill of how to quickly set up or pack up while performing. Half an hour between bands is enough for people to get bored and leave. Bands need to be super quick to keep people around. Get a couple of your mates to help you out so you can be ready to play just 15 min's after the band before you.

Just one more thing. Playing super loud makes you sound crap! Make sure the volume from the PA is set at a level the AUDIENCE will enjoy. Not to loud not to soft.

Doing a few of the above things will help you get more people to your gigs.
</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


rockDJ 16 Mar 2004 19:10

Interesting debate going on here. But for my 2cents how about this for an idea. We know venues will pay for a covers band and also a Dj.
Bands perform covers at venues and build up a fanbase, they say to the venue we play 80% covers and 20% original. If the venue says no we only want 100% covers, you do that until they love you and want to book you on a semi permanent basis. After which you increase your fees and say to the you shall introduce some originals into the set and on a sliding scale you bring more original music until you play 50/50 if you have enough material. It's all about balance really, from free gigs/venue hire to being contracted and paid by the venue to play.
Oh by the way, I dont mind pay for play as far as I am concerned once I hire the venue, i can run the night how i please and i assure you the venue will WORK hard for their money. They will put up my balloons, signage, and be at my beck and call and I decide what music gets played to my crowd. As a DJ, gosh we have been doing this for ages and by the way Laundry is cheap, try going to some of the nightclubs to put on a show and see what they tell you $1500.00 for venue hire can sometimes be quoted so like anything else shop around and perform where you can afford it but at least try to ensure everyone earns.
Marketing is not a dirty word by the way so Growup does have a point regarding giving people what they want. It is the first rule to running a business. You can always take them where you want to go once you have won them over.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


MrLoud 18 Mar 2004 17:20

Some more biffo!, Now GUK,

"ok this has pissed me off long enough. I am amazed at the 'infantile level of intelligence' this debate has shown" & "However, debate the issue without getting personal."
- you must be a comedian, come on GUK, see how you bind yourself with your words. Lawyers - legal action!!! Allow me to send you some schematics on bridge building, because you seriously need to get over it GUK???

Enough said!!!
Anyhow,
Lets have a look from this angle, of this HOT topic, from the venues perspective - assuming the "aforementioned" venue has bands not wanting/boycotting to play there because of their "pay to play" stance, but the venue still wants to be a "live music" venue - would they not have to try to source some live music?

At this point would the band(s)/artist have 'hand' in the 'contractual' agreement? (yes or no?)
Infact - would the band/artist/GUK type people be obligated to make any guarantees to the venue, ie fizz sold at the bar, door, gas/electricity/water/rent/wages/insurance etc if they are being 'hired'?

Sure conditions would apply (must be live!!!), but I am tipping no venue would run an add like;
'venue seeks live music however will need money up front to play".


Possible Effects/Outcomes?

eg, the venue will be paying through the nose to have live bands play there, which inevitably, the costs will be passed down to the punter, who will inevitiably boycott the venue due to $8 pots.?

Ideas?

Gladys, can you be my lawyer?? :)
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PallMall 18 Mar 2004 18:03

Look guys. It's simple.
Pros GET PAID. Amatures don't. We play music for a living NOT FOR FUN. It's OUR business too. Why do we have to constantly suffer losses? It cost $10,000 for PA, $15,000 for guitars, $200 to string the guitars, effects pedals, mics, stands, etc....If a venue wants good music done by pros, they should PAY FOR IT. You pay peanuts you get monkeys. If your venue can't afford to pay, don't have pro musicians. I have been in business all my adult life. Some days are great some days are not. You live with the losses. Playing for a few drinks is not the way it should be. Quality bands will eventually draw people to the venues. Paying out at LEAST $100 is not much of a loss for a venue.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


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