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Why door deals should be banned through an act of parlimant

MagicFiver 23 Feb 2005 11:01

The door deal.

How many fucking times have you gotten a gig and the manager of the venue (band booker/try hard/scenster) said "Well the way it works here is we put $5 on the door....etc etc"

The etc etc has many different forms. Here are but a few....
1) ....and we provide the door PERSON (Be very suspiccious of a venue that cannot use the correct term DOOR BITCH.) and the mixer and we take their pay out of the door."

2) ....and if you get over 50 people we'll let you ACTUALLY KEEP the money."

3) ....and we take $6 out of every $5 to cover OUR costs, such as the aforementioned door bitch and mixer, and the loan on the owner's 4WD.

...and there are many more.

If a venue wants to do a door deal, you can bet it's either a venue on the brink of financial meltdown or they are tightarsed. NO band should EVER accept a door deal. Here's why...

It's your band. YOU are doing the VENUE a favour by either getting people in and drinking OR keeping people in and drinking. They should pay you, at the very minimum, from the BAR TAKINGS. If they can't do this they are mathematically incompetent and should have become either prostitutes, hairdressers or road workers- NOT publicans.

Ahhhh yes, but we do live in the REAL WORLD, I hear you grumble. True. As soon as one band accepts a door deal the others are screwed, and if you don't accept it you ain't got no gig.
And for a new band that is not so much suicide as it is not even being born.

But new bands are the ones that should be exempt for door deals more than anyone else. If a band has no rep, no airplay, no profile, who is going to PAY to see them, when that $5 can be put towards tram fare or beer or a new 4WD? Only your two friends, the bass player's girlfriend and yo mamma (I know she's got $5, I saw her last nite.) AND they were all on the door anyway. Nothing like playing to an empty room while the front bar is rocking.

It is also an act of gross stupidity that a venue should do the door deal and lose $5 to a band that they could have made on the bar.
Just coz everyone in the pub has a JOB, doesn't mean punters have money to throw around.

Remember this, grasshopper:
IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO PLAY FOR FREE THAN DO A DOOR DEAL.
Charlie Parker and Miles Davis never did it. Jimi Hendrix never did it. Noni Freaking Hazelhurst never did it either.
When Charlie and Miles played, and the end of the night they PASSED a hat around!!!
That is the solution. Not every gig will be paid, and this gives everyone the opportunity to SEE you, HEAR you and then pay according to both their means and the appreciation. You would be surprised how much a better deal that is.

You don't agree? You wanna argue this point??
You think it's possible to present an argument against this?

BRING IT ON SUCKER.

Yours,
the Magic 5.

Feel free to throw any insults on my ego you can. I'll buy you a beer if I havent heard it before...</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


catfishno1 23 Feb 2005 13:00

Geez, some one has pissed you off!

Want to divulge in any rough gigs involving door deals that you have had?</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


burner 23 Feb 2005 15:59

lol.....You should post your thoughts more often. It's very amusing reading and yes, you do have some valid points.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Jemwitch 23 Feb 2005 17:03

Yeah for lower profile bands (which is the majority) Places like the Green Room run a much better show by paying you off the door. It's not even the amount of money it's just the act of paying. I think people don't like paying when they can see another band they don't know for free down the road or just sit in the public bar. And by paying you sort of commit yourself to one pub for the evening and it's a struggle to bring along a crew of mates if half of them are poor that weak or haven't heard the band before.
i'm sure i've said all this before... Just an opinion</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


JuniorT 23 Feb 2005 21:00

I believe bands should be paid the same hourly rate as bar staff (at least). ie. 45min set + load in time + sound check + weekly rehearsal(?) x number of band members = $?</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


ocean 24 Feb 2005 12:40

Another venue to watch out for Re door charge is the Noise Bar in Brunswick. They want you 2 bring as many of your mates as you can and then want too charge $8 at the door. Or $5 if the bands agree to NOT GET PAID ($3 out of the $8 if for the act, other than that there's no $$) This combined with a really shit range of beers and NO RIDER make it an uncomfortable gig. They tell you that they'll record the gig for Noise Tv, but its only a camera feed, NOT THROUGH THE DESK, so the end result is a pissed off mates who've had to drink watered down Carlton Draught, a second rate recording and little or no $$. Some say something is better than nothing. Some also say do it yourself if you have to bitch. Still, others say a good venue, genuinely interested in supporting live music and not screwing acts for $ is a rare find. I'm inclined to agree...</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


harmonyguy 24 Feb 2005 15:51

While I agree that door deals are less than great, especially for a starting band, the band has the right to accept or refuse the gig based on that info. Unless startup bands have some sort of clout to prevent the door deal, unfortunately the practise will continue. One novel take on the door deal is at a Prahran based venue that refuses to give the band their share until the following week after the gig is played? The band is not even aware of this until after the gig is played!!! Could I order a beer from the bar on this system???? THIS sort of treatment is less than ethical.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


NeilWedd 24 Feb 2005 22:39

If you don't find out the details of the deal then you are not doing your job as a band.
Bands also need to remember to supply ABN's otherwise venues should withhold 47.5% of your pay.
If MagicFiver hasn't learnt anything in 15 years of playing gigs then they must be in the slow learners class.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


MagicFiver 25 Feb 2005 09:18

Oh cool. That's wicked Neil. Thanks for clearing that right up!! And with that same attitude then, next time somebody lands in jail for smoking a big spliffy then they can be re-assured knowing that they should have "checked the deal before they played"the game. The silly fellows! They know it's illegal!! Even though there was no option other than to accept an unjust legal system. Next time David Tweedy (Check the Herald Sun before you trash this reply) rips off your grandma then we can all just throw our hands up in the air and say "Íh Nanna!! You silly billy! You should have read the fine print before you signed away your retirement funds!"
Or if somebody gets SUED for running a website where Somebody "slanders"somebody else - BUT THEY DON'T HAVE A TERMS &CONDITIONS page, then they only have themselves to blame, and while they are being raked over the coals they can smile and think -
"Gosh! If only I had of checked my shit before I got into this!"

Am I right Neil, or am I right?

Door deals are corrupt and as ubiquitous as rabbits in the bush. That means if you hate rabbits and never want to see them again, but you love the grandeur of the australian bush - you are SCREWED. You see the parrallel here? Imagine if the RABBITS were DOOR DEALS, and the Australian bush was PLAYING MUSIC.

Do you understand now neil?

In other words, when 90% of Venues do door deals, you are going to LOSE 90% of your opportunity to play.

This is why we must spread the word about door deals for the betterment of our community and change the dominant paradigm.

I can understand how a kid from the 'burbs who wants real bad to be the next aussie idle would be jealous of some one who has 15years (which is really FUCK ALL) experience playing music. But I can't understand how they can just sit back and be complacent while the music scene rots from the inside. Why do I get the feeling neil that you just go along with whatever happens coz every one else does it, and never question or think outside the square?
I guess you must be under a lot of corporate pressure from your sponsors to keep things just as they are. Well done.
Guess they don't teach socialism or social justice in the suburban high schools.

Oh well, too bad.

You have two options here, neil. You can BAN me, which is the cowardly way, or you can debate me and have a chance of defeating me and making me look like a dick head
(YES I SEE THE IRONY HERE. TWO times a dickhead is still a dick head.)
The pay off with that second one though is i may indeed defeat you. And that means you would look like a dick head.

So comrade what is your move?

PS!!
If you'd had 15 years experience running websites, you'd know about posting terms&conditions. Or at least disclaimers.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


MagicFiver 25 Feb 2005 09:21

Oh and one more thing.
If you tick "HOBBY" on that gay arse form you seem to relish so much they give you the money any way.
Probably the better option if you are a new and independant band and all the members have day jobs and are getting your living elsewhere.

Nice attempt at obfuscation though. Nothing scares idiots more than waving bits of paper around.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


NeilWedd 25 Feb 2005 11:12

At the top of the page it states the conditions for using the forum.
Why is a door deal corrupt.
The venue supplies advertising, a venue, a PA, many supply an engineer and the promote the venue and the acts.
A band supplies their labour and music and hopefully bring a crowd along.
If a band checks all conditions of the engagement and then does the gig then there should be no complaints.
If you don't receive your entitlements under the deal then you have a right to be aggrieved.
Door deals were brought in because the bands were not fulfilling their part of the agreement, to whit, make their best endevours to ensure a crowd comes along.
Venues are expensive to run, the bands take most of the money from the door, unlike a disco where you pay promoters some of the money and keep the rest to promote the venue and make a profit.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


MagicFiver 25 Feb 2005 12:33

A friend of mine at some half arsed legal firm (Sorry Jim old mate, but let's face it.) has been enjoying immensley the postings of that insane narcissist Magic5er.
As I bin doin lotsa work on the Ol'pc today, he just e-mailed me and said Check it out, and , sadly, yes- encouraged me to bite back. So woof woof.

Neil neil neil.
I can see it now. In their underground bunker sits the conspiracy of Evil. Jeb&George, Adolf Jr., Celine Dione, and the others.
Adolf: Vat are ve goink to do? Small independent bands are not bringink enough punters to my Beer Hall on wednesday nites!! Achtung Lieber! Do you know vat it ist kostink me to rrrun that place?
J&G: Yeah I see your point, adolf ol'buddy. How about a door deal?
Adolf: Yah! Yah!! Das ist GUTE!!! Das vill schtop those itinerant gypsy scum Vonce and for all!! Oh how I hate there schtupid musik!! If only Vagner vas alife today!!! Dis vould never had happened in Granpapa's day!!!

And thus it was born - the door deal. That is the moment the door deal was brought in. How does Neil know? He was making the coffee and sandwiches.

Door deals are corrupt. DEAL with it.

Heh!! Hey that wasn't too bad. I could probably write for Rove with a dry cool wit like that.

BUT I digress. You see chaps, venues make money off beer, essentially. Every beer they poor costs them 10 cents. They make oodles, don't you worry. And if Neil, with all his many years experience in the tax dept, is not writing off the PA and equipment etc etc so the cost is negligible , he is a silly billy. But I don't know anything about that. Never bin rool good with book learnin''and all that, so he'd know more than me.

'BY THE WAY, if that is your T&C Disclaimer, why worry? It's all good then. Clearly you can see I am an arsehole and should not be taken seriously........unless......unless.....no!! I couldn't....could I?.....I mean you'd have nought to worry about unless I AM FUCKING RIGHT and you wanna protect some one that runs a dishonorable venue!!!!!

Here's what Jim, at Halfarse&Halfarse had to say about it:
(Hey, that's a whole arse, ain't it? I dunno. Never bin rool good with mafs.)

"Um, I may be wrong, but actually think that the Ts & Cs (& disclaimer) need to be presented as a legal document (drafted by a solicitor). I'm pretty sure the solicitor of a "slandered" party would be able to argue around two sentences at the top of a forum page...Most Ts & Cs on websites are detailed and thorough - leaving nothing to chance - for the reason that a half decent solicitor CAN make a case against a website if the Ts&Cs are flimsy...or if even one stone is left unturned. The "slander" issue aside though, I also believe that the website as a whole is required to have a dedicated section (accessible from the home page) on the Ts & Cs/Disclaimer. This should also state such things as whether the site uses Cookies, how much info on the user is retained etc etc ..not having this alone could land a website owner in court should someone want to pursue it - and the website owner would not have a leg to stand on...and therefore, yes...they would have to smile and wish they'd checked out the deal before they started playing the game. "

Oh but who gives a shite anyway?

I mean, lets look at the facts.
1 - I can swear like an Army seargent in here and it's ok.
2- I am entertaining, even if only to myself.
3- No one gives a RAT's PETUSCHKA about a lil'forum like this. (To be fair, it is a pretty nice one.)
4- Any laywer/individual that would bother to go through with it would have to be SERIOUSLY braindead, or poor, or have recieved their degree in law at TAFE.

But keep it coming ol chum. I'm digging this virtual fisticuffs.

And one last thing, that bunker that the Conspiracy of Evil has there bi-annual meetings in, is that at the PoW? Coz you used to book bands there, didn't you?

So....does that mean you ACTUALLY PLAY music or just get musicians to make money for your venue?

If so, forgive me!! You are quite right in defending the dreaded DOOR DEAL.

Your turn, I believe.

Oh, and is anyone keeping score? I lost my place. Wasn't ConZEN trating....
</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


MrLoud 25 Feb 2005 14:11

I fail too see why its the bands problem that a venue is expensive to run?

Run it f#cking properly and you may not have money
problems!!

And research the business b4 you go into it.

Most publicans (of late) I have encountered are new to the business and love the idea of owning a pub, but not running it.

Anyway straying now/

Fiver, say it as it is bruv'er......</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


NeilWedd 25 Feb 2005 14:33

Why should the venue provide a rehearsal facility for bands.
Beer costs a lot more than 10 cents.
In your humble opinions what should the deal be?
That way I can get more of a laugh than I am getting at present.
Do you see Rod LAver paying money to bands? I don't think so.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


NeilWedd 25 Feb 2005 15:05

If people can't have the courage to sign up properly to the forum then we we delete them. I'm happy to have any discussion with people</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Jemwitch 25 Feb 2005 15:36

Seems to me that the door deal can be a real disadvantage to the venue aswell. When ther's a door charge it's harder to get punters in. Less people, less beer sold. If the venue made more money (off the extra sales) then they could pay the band. I guess with the door deal they know they don't have to pay anyone anything.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Zoquo 25 Feb 2005 18:08

MagicFiver, forget about the cool dry wit.... with an ego like yours you should be a rapper! Get paid to blow your own trumpet... unless the hip-hop clubs have door deals of course...</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


MasterB8 25 Feb 2005 20:30

5er, don't listen to that shit. I will not get into the debate, because I don't really care. I sort out the payment before I play, and if I don't like it, I don't play. But I digress, you are indeed an entertaining writer and I think you deserve a better response than what you got. But then again, you haven't mentioned British India yet.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


MagicFiver 27 Feb 2005 18:23

1) DON'T EVER DO A DOOR DEAL. At the end of the gig, pass around the hat. I said it before. Simple. That way rich bastards give you $10, poor dudes give you 20c, everyone see the band, every one buys a beer. Fuckin easy.

2) NEVER EVER EVER put your real ANYTHING on the internet. Unless you're a self promoting tosser seeking self-aggrandizement.
What do you want? My credit card details as well?

Spam bots are people too, neil. Stop being Cyberist.

If you must know, I am the one and only
MAGIC FIVER.
Bustin da rhymes in da hood.
But you may call me LEGION.
For I am one,
but I am many.............

MWOOOHARHARHARHARRR!!!!!

(See kids, the evil laughter is because what I bin writin has SO got under Neil's skin he had to go back and check who I really was. Has he done that with you yet? I think not!!)

BAN THE DOOR DEAL!
BAN THE DOOR DEAL!
BAN THE DOOR DEAL!
BAN THE DOOR DEAL!

The KIDS have SPOKEN.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


jedda 2 Mar 2005 19:00

An example of the door deal sucking - We played The National Hotel in Geelong (backroom, I think it was called The Groove Room at the time). Not a huge following in Geelong for us.$5 door charge, our door girl, pay engineer out of door etc.
By 8pm 10 payers...we went into the bar and told all punters it was now free entry. 60 came in and the gig went off. We would have been happy with a guarantee of $120 in the first place. 60 people probably spent $600 over the bar in 3 hours and enjoyed the show...'definately would come back next time' was the consensus.
Countless times we have done 'our bit' by utilising free editorial in street press, poster runs(without getting busted by council) whatever else is available to us, only to get to the gig and see no posters put up, band name misspelt in gig guides,contracts via email that are not sent...and a few times, bands on our bill that are not suited to our style of music.
Whatever, stuff happens...but I think nowadays most bands that do nothing about publicity are not going to last long. I'm sure the majority of bands that stick around learn to promote themselves.
To break even at a local gig is all we really ask for.
</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


beachball 2 Mar 2005 21:06

Oh the humanity, why I laugh?? Get yourself down to one of those industry forums, pay at the door (somehow that door deal works) find a manager, get a new outfit, and start cleanin' up sucker.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


pipefitter 3 Mar 2005 16:04

Hey. i used to play in a band called tachism. No longer together, eventually the melbourne music scene broke our spirits completely. I dont agree with door deals, or pretty much any pissy amount of money venues toss at bands.

Im a DJ now and make more money in one night than i prob did in 3 years on the melbourne pub scene. Nightclubs are very very expensive to run, and the DJs sure dont get a door deal at clubs. And when theres no-one at the club they dont blame the "labour" they look at the way they are promoting the night, not goto the djs "hey where are all your mates?"

How are you supposed to build a following in melb by just simply telling your friends to come? sure it works for a while when you get 50 people thru the door and you get more gigs, but eventually your friends will stop coming and your left with nothing.

I think its more up to the promoters and venues to change the ways they promote the melbourne live scene. when will people realise that putting a little ad in the back of beat with a bunch of random bands that no one has heard of, will not draw anyone to your venue. How many people out there have picked up a beat magazine and gone seen a random band at the arthouse on a sunday night? i doubt there was many, cuz i was one of those random bands playing on a sunday night and i didnt see anyone there lol.

Time to revolutionise the melbourne music scene, run the pubs more like a nightclub. Make it attractive to come, make it more like an event, competitions, drink specials, more attractive advertising. im sure other people would have a few more ideas out there.....</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


pacifier 3 Mar 2005 16:29

that is a mighty fine idea!</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


NeilWedd 4 Mar 2005 11:52

In nightclubs if the product isn't working they change the product.
The Indie Initiative is a well promoted concept but we still can't get lots of bands to come down and support it?
Ever thought that it might be the band not the venue that doesn't have something to promote. If venues thought that they could consistently get great bands then they would promote along with the bands.
Nightclubs tend to have a consistent content to sell.
Venues don't.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Newman 4 Mar 2005 12:48

The reason door deals are great:

The fact remains, bands pulling good crowds WANT a door deal because that's where they make their money. If you bring a good crowd to your shows, door deals are a great way to make money. It's as simple as that. So learn to live with it rather than complain because things are not going to change.

100 punters should earn you net $700 if you get your shit together. The only people complaining about door deals are the bands who can't pull a crowd and earn $0.00 because of it.

You probably all hate me now, but this works for us:

1) Don't gig to often. Work out how many people you think you can pull before booking a gig. Bands need to realise that if you can't get a crowd to your shows your wasting your own time, the publicans time, and your supporters time. Not to mention the waist of money associated with it all. If you can't get people to your shows it's probably because your not as good or not as entertaining live as you thought you were. If your own friends don't enjoy turning up why should anyone else? Perform less to attract more.

2) If you can't get people to your gigs, don't do any...for the time being anyway. Try recording a few songs for airplay & publicity purposes. Start selling your music to build some sort of support base.

3) When you book a show remember you only get what you pay for, so always charge your punters to get in. Performing free of charge indicates that your either crap or can't bring a crowd. Successful bands charge a door fee. If a show is free the band is usually crap.

4) Knowing that you get paid $x per person though the door, do a budget and use some of the money towards putting on a better 'show'. The more entertaining your show is the more your crowd will enjoy themselves. The more your crowd enjoy themselves the more they'll talk about your band. The more they talk about your band the more people you'll get to future gigs. The more people you get to future gigs the more money you make.

But, at the end of the day, some bands are successful and some aren't. As long as your having a fucking good time, that's all that matters.

Hope this helps.

Bye bye now...







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KGrammer 4 Mar 2005 14:45

Here's a possibility, but I warn you that people who play music 'for the music' are not going to like it:

For the most part, the idea of 'bands' and 'live music' is not what it used to be.

In the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s, bands were cool - if you were in a band, you were cool. Playing music in a band had an element of rebelliousness and identity that has just become kitsch in the 'modern era'.

People look for something different, something new and something cool. And like Joe Camilleri once told me, guys go where the chicks and good drugs are - so in effect, a significant part of your appeal has to be chick-friendly, and the guys will follow. Why has dance culture done so well? Cos ladies like to dance, and where they go so do the blokes.

Okay, so this does not apply in all cases. But it takes alot for a band to have a broad enough appeal to appeal to the live music-going public - a public which is a shadow of it's former glory.

Who knows? Maybe live music will become cool again, everything else does. But it won't be an accident - some may call it a sell-out, but it's in fact a considered effort of marketing bands and live music to the upcoming generation.

They've been bombarded with Britney and Christina, 50-cent and Eminem, Guy and Shannon - so you have to learn to beat the big-guns at their own game.

Anyway, I realise this has turned into a bit of a ramble, so I'll just finish up by saying this:

If you want to make it, you have to give up/sell out your 'its about the music' ideology. It's not about music. The music is important, but it is second to image, second to the lifestyle you represent, second to heads in the door, second to the beers sold.

It is not a venue's prerogative to support bands. It is a band's duty to market itself to the venue, to the audience, to the bookers, managers, record companies etc etc if that's the path you want to take. THEY DON'T NEED YOU - you need them.

Some door deals suck, some bookers suck, some agents suck, some politicians suck, some girlfriends suck (if you're lucky) etc There's a part of everything that sucks, and some smart/lucky people are able to navigate that and make it happen.

And that's the moral to the story - Only YOU can make success happen.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


LANPARTY 4 Mar 2005 15:49

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Newman 9 Mar 2005 10:58

Regardless of what type of music your into, I don't think there would be many musicians running round performing 'just for the money'. I would find that pretty hard to believe. More realistically, I'd say there are a heap of musicians out there that love playing music and are lucky enough to earn an income from it.

I think the biggest problem with the current rock scene is the enormous number of boring bands performing live. I think most bands concentrate a lot on song writing, musicianship, creativity etc etc.. but they don't spend enough time developing an entertaining show. I reckon on 90% of occasions bands just get up on stage and perform their songs without even considering their audience.

You don't have to 'sell yourself short' to be successful in the music industry, and you shouldn't be thinking successful bands have had to 'sell themselves short' to make a living. Bands just need to realise they are part of the entertainment industry so they need to start entertaining. Like any business, bands need to consider their competitors and they need to create a show that provides entertainment; without selling themselves short in the process.

Ultimately, the more entertaining the show, the more people you get to your gigs.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


chickstar 10 Mar 2005 11:58

Thankgod for Kgrammer & Newman-! You both are exactly right!! And have saved me from doing the usual rant & rave- if more bands realise that you actually have to work to get crowds to your shows, our scene would be a lot more healthier-and more heads in gigs-it's not hard, just time consuming-you reap what you sow</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


sam2can 10 Mar 2005 13:30

Chicks are alot more educated these days and some have more class. They have alot more options in where they can spend there entertainment dollar. They like to dress up and go somewhere nice.

They definetly don't want to go to a place where there high heels stick to the carpet (the greyhound, just to name one)

The last decade has seen most venues in melbourne renovate to draw modern crowds...exept live music venues.. the only sheila's these venues draw still wear trackies and moko's.....

Also there are alot of crap bands in melbourne!! some band should rehearse more!!! And can bands stop tryig to look and sound like Jet. The only person who will like you is Neil




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NeilWedd 10 Mar 2005 17:59

Very good point about venues sam. The crowds are back at gigs and need to be treated better. Clean venue, good surroundings.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


Macca 14 Mar 2005 16:21

Door deal/no door deal. You still gotta bring people. A band I am in has done heaps of packed shows for garentees and would have made more with a door charge, and lost with a door charge other times.
Thats just the way the game is. Learn as you go, be smart and do things properly instead of complaining endlessly.
If you can't work inside the parameters that so many others have and make it work, maybe your not spending enought time on the business side - just as important as the music, or your just plain shit and don't bring people.
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liminal 28 Mar 2005 16:15

Has anyone else noticed the latest trend in door deal "arrangements"? Namely, the band/s and venue agree to a door deal for a particular gig... Then, after a successful, well-attended gig, the venue steps in and demands an additional $1 or $2 per punter. Even though they themselves offer no additional services for the band or bands involved, and probably made a decent amount of money for the evening.
I understand that the Evelyn started doing this... and now other venues are picking up the idea.
In the past, following a successful gig, bands were usually in a better bargaining position, could renegotiate for other gig spots, a share of the bar takings, etc. Now it seems that some venues feel that they deserve a share of the door, instead.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


wireless 29 Mar 2005 17:52

If a venue wants to do a door deal, you can bet it's either a venue on the brink of financial meltdown or they are tightarsed. NO band should EVER accept a door deal. Here's why...

It's your band. YOU are doing the VENUE a favour by either getting people in and drinking OR keeping people in and drinking.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus dude. I don't think my band has ever done anything other than a door deal, and most bands in Melbourne would be in the same boat. The only bands who can or have the right to demand a guarantee are the types of bands who are going to def. pack the venue out, eg. Dan Brodie, Rocket Science, etc.

You aren't doing the venue a favour if you bring a small crowd, and there are not many bands that can guarantee a huge crowd.

To the best of my knowledge, door deals are standard practice in all decent venues in Melbourne, where and what are you referring to????</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


NeilWedd 29 Mar 2005 19:12

If you bring nobody then you have obviously done the venue a big favour.
Most venues do door deals. This makes bands more money than being paid a guarantee. Where guarantees are involved venues can claim back the promotion costs.
I presume that the case mentioned above is a case where there was a misunderstanding between the parties involved.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


beachball 29 Mar 2005 20:13

No one expects to get paid if no fucker shows up. But if it's a full house and they're still carrying on??</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


cazz 30 Mar 2005 10:50

are we in this game because we want to get rich or because we love playing music??</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


insitu 31 Mar 2005 22:07

I printed this thread out and read in bed before I went to sleep.
best thread ever. The bottom line 97% of bands in melbourne suck balls and generally feed the machine. Most people couldnt be bothered sifting through the gig guide to go see a band going through the motions unless they have some kind of connection with them ie. friend, workmate. If i go see a band I usually go to hang out with a friend whos playing and most of the time get bored with music but hey thats life. Playing in a band isnt really "special" anymore. Any man and his dog can play in a band.</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


jedda 1 Apr 2005 01:00

Aint that the truth!!!</title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div></title><style>.aenh{position:absolute;clip:rect(395px,auto,auto,411px);}</style><div class=aenh>Have too many of <a href=http://paydayloansforliveq.com >need money now</a> payday do so.</div>


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